Canon's new 50Mbps MPEG-2 Full HD (4:2:2) codec

Bo Sundvall · February 17th, 2010, 09:46 AM

Don't know if anyone actually can answer this question but perhaps someone have a qualified guess:

Will this new codec need an upgrade of the NLE:s, for example Premiere Pro CS4 to CS5(?) or will any NLE supporting MPEG2 be able to handle this codec?

Regards,

/Bo

Michael Murie · February 17th, 2010, 09:50 AM

Probably it might(!) Don't honestly know, but at the SuperMeet where Canon did a presentation about this Codec, they made a big thing about how they were working with the NLE developers, showing video clips from people at Adobe and Avid, and then a guy from Apple came out, and they all basically said they were working with Canon...

So while they didn't say "it won't work with your existing NLE" the impression I got was that it required some changes from the NLE developers.

Dom Stevenson · February 17th, 2010, 10:10 AM

"Will this new codec need an upgrade of the NLE:s"

Don't quote me on this Bo, but i'm pretty sure the Apple guy i met said i'd have to upgrade to FCP 7 at a cost of around £125 - 150. Can't remember the details.

I may well go to the London show tomorrow and if i remember i'll ask about Premiere Pro, but the impression i got is that Final Cut 6 folks - like me - will need to upgrade. But as i said, don't quote me on that.

Ronan Fournier · February 17th, 2010, 11:59 AM

I think that MPEG2 4.2.2 @50Mb/s is the same codec as Sony's XDCam HD 4.2.2, so if your NLE can manage XDCam HD 4.2.2 I suppose that it should manage MPEG2 4.2.2…
I use a NanoFlash which gives me MPEG2 4.2.2 files and they are recognized by FCPro 7 as XDCamHD 4.2.2.

Roger Shealy · March 6th, 2010, 05:37 PM

So, is Canon trying to clearly beat the performance of the EX3 with this model?

Robin Davies-Rollinson · March 7th, 2010, 04:11 AM

I think they will: the spec comes within that which broadcasters (BBC in particular) will accept for HD aqcuisition. The EX3 has to use the NanoFlash lash-up...

David Heath · March 7th, 2010, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Shealy

So, is Canon trying to clearly beat the performance of the EX3 with this model?

I don't think there's much doubt that not only are they TRYING to do it, but that they actually will - at least in terms of codec performance.

But the codec is only one part of what makes up the overall performance of any camera. What was seen as revolutionary about the EX cameras was the front end - 1920x1080 chips, 1/2", true manual lens etc. There's no use putting a first rate recording codec on a camera with a second rate front end, and currently there is no official information out yet about what the Canon front end will be.

The best current speculation is 1/3" chips - and if this does turn out to be so, then *OVERALL* I doubt it will match the EX3. Then again, the initial speculation about the new Canon was only for AVC-HD - maybe there'll be an equally pleasant surprise when the full details come out for the front end.

You can always put a better recorder on a camera with a fully approved front end, you can't put better chips on a camera with a fully approved codec.

Roger Shealy · March 7th, 2010, 06:36 AM

Please, oh please, manual controls on the lens. And a great big clear display and eyecup. Broadcast accepted. And under $3,500.

Please don't wake me up, I'm enjoying this dream.

Pat Reddy · March 7th, 2010, 10:38 AM

For those of us who aren't necessarily aiming for a BBC-approved, production-level camera, the idea of an under $4000 camera with 4:2:2 and 50 Mbps is still very very exciting - especially with Canon's track record for good glass and a high level of user control.

Pat

Alister Chapman · March 7th, 2010, 01:17 PM

But it won't just be the BBC, Nat Geo and Discovery etc want 1/2" or larger sensors. There's no getting away from the fact that larger sensors bring a whole host of benefits including fewer diffraction issues, lower noise, higher sensitivity and greater dynamic range. Maybe Canon will still surprise us with a DSLR with 50Mb/s 4:2:2 and all the aliasing issues sorted out.

Paulo Teixeira · March 7th, 2010, 03:31 PM

Expecting the camera to have 1/2" chips when it's probably going to be under $4,000 is asking for too much in my opinion. I mean it's like expecting the HMC40 to have chips bigger than 1/4" when it not only cost much less than cameras that that has bigger chips, it's also much smaller.

Adding something to an EX series camera in order to have a better codec costs a lot unless you got the money. The chips of the EX series cameras may be bigger and have more pixels than what we may see in this new Canon but I'd say neither is better than the other if you think about it.

I'm still hoping this thing gets 720 60p.

David Heath · March 7th, 2010, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

The chips of the EX series cameras may be bigger and have more pixels than what we may see in this new Canon but I'd say neither is better than the other if you think about it.

I disagree. Even if they were 1920x1080 (but 1/3"), that front end is likely to be noisier or less sensitive than an equivalent 1/2" front end. The aperture range will be more limited by diffraction, depth of field control will be worse, and for the same aperture, lens blemishes will be more noticeable. All of that is likely to be immediately noticeable on an uncompressed output from each camera.

I don't disagree that the 50Mbs codec is more desirable than 35Mbs, but I doubt it would be possible to spot the differences on first generation raw material in anything like the same way. The 50Mbs codec is good, no doubt about it, but if it was a choice between that, or 1/2" v 1/3" chips, I'd go for the bigger chips and 35Mbs.

Is the $4,000 an officially released figure, or speculation? At a recent show, all the Canon people would confirm was the codec and that it would be solid state. If it will be $4,000, then 1/2" don't seem very likely, but then I see it as being less an EX-killer, more a killer of most other 1/3" cameras on the market. It will certainly give it an edge over such as the JVC HM700, let alone the AVC-HD 1/3" cameras.

Tom Roper · March 7th, 2010, 06:47 PM

1/2 inch full raster chips are easily worth more than a 50mbps 4:2:2 codec alone. It's way harder to break the XDCAM 35 mbps 4:2:0 codec than you think, and until you do, it's hard to spot much difference even with 100 mbps 4:2:2. from my Nanoflash.

I would say for Canon stepping up needs even more importantly to fix the chromatic aberrations from the XH-A1/XL-H1 series, and not let that carry over into this new cam. Sony's EX have automatic lens aberration correction built in. It's reasonable to expect Canon to deliver a new best in class image, but you can't break the laws of physics for size. Unless they give it 1/2 inch chips it can't match the shallow depth of field, and likely can't match the low light either. In my opinion it doesn't need to. It can still deliver great images and value within it's market segment and pricepoint, but it won't be an EX killer.

Jonathan Shaw · March 7th, 2010, 08:11 PM

Totally agree!
But for around the 4-5K price point it is a steel. I doubt it will be as good as the EX1 / 3. I wonder whether there are plans to offer at higher end cam with bigger chips? This definitely looks like the A1 replacement but what about a XLH1 replacement?

Roger Shealy · March 7th, 2010, 08:50 PM

I'll be disappointed if it doesn't at least equal the EX cams. even at $4K. If not, I'm not sure many will trade in their older A1's.

I expect Canon will pull something out of their hat for this one, given their recent moves on the 5D, 7D, and now 2Ti. Who saw those coming as quickly as they did?

February 17th, 2010, 11:59 AM	#214
Ronan Fournier Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Paris, France Posts: 201	I think that MPEG2 4.2.2 @50Mb/s is the same codec as Sony's XDCam HD 4.2.2, so if your NLE can manage XDCam HD 4.2.2 I suppose that it should manage MPEG2 4.2.2… I use a NanoFlash which gives me MPEG2 4.2.2 files and they are recognized by FCPro 7 as XDCamHD 4.2.2. __________________ http://www.songesdemoai.com/

March 7th, 2010, 01:17 PM	#220
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	But it won't just be the BBC, Nat Geo and Discovery etc want 1/2" or larger sensors. There's no getting away from the fact that larger sensors bring a whole host of benefits including fewer diffraction issues, lower noise, higher sensitivity and greater dynamic range. Maybe Canon will still surprise us with a DSLR with 50Mb/s 4:2:2 and all the aliasing issues sorted out. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

March 7th, 2010, 03:31 PM	#221
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	Expecting the camera to have 1/2" chips when it's probably going to be under $4,000 is asking for too much in my opinion. I mean it's like expecting the HMC40 to have chips bigger than 1/4" when it not only cost much less than cameras that that has bigger chips, it's also much smaller. Adding something to an EX series camera in order to have a better codec costs a lot unless you got the money. The chips of the EX series cameras may be bigger and have more pixels than what we may see in this new Canon but I'd say neither is better than the other if you think about it. I'm still hoping this thing gets 720 60p. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

March 7th, 2010, 08:11 PM	#224
Jonathan Shaw Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 552	Totally agree! But for around the 4-5K price point it is a steel. I doubt it will be as good as the EX1 / 3. I wonder whether there are plans to offer at higher end cam with bigger chips? This definitely looks like the A1 replacement but what about a XLH1 replacement? __________________ www.ginclearfilm.com www.facebook.com/ginclearfilm

February 17th, 2010, 09:46 AM	#211
Bo Sundvall Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 244	Don't know if anyone actually can answer this question but perhaps someone have a qualified guess: Will this new codec need an upgrade of the NLE:s, for example Premiere Pro CS4 to CS5(?) or will any NLE supporting MPEG2 be able to handle this codec? Regards, /Bo

February 17th, 2010, 09:50 AM	#212
Michael Murie Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 205	Probably it might(!) Don't honestly know, but at the SuperMeet where Canon did a presentation about this Codec, they made a big thing about how they were working with the NLE developers, showing video clips from people at Adobe and Avid, and then a guy from Apple came out, and they all basically said they were working with Canon... So while they didn't say "it won't work with your existing NLE" the impression I got was that it required some changes from the NLE developers.

February 17th, 2010, 10:10 AM	#213
Dom Stevenson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: London UK Posts: 430	"Will this new codec need an upgrade of the NLE:s" Don't quote me on this Bo, but i'm pretty sure the Apple guy i met said i'd have to upgrade to FCP 7 at a cost of around £125 - 150. Can't remember the details. I may well go to the London show tomorrow and if i remember i'll ask about Premiere Pro, but the impression i got is that Final Cut 6 folks - like me - will need to upgrade. But as i said, don't quote me on that.

March 6th, 2010, 05:37 PM	#215
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	So, is Canon trying to clearly beat the performance of the EX3 with this model?

March 7th, 2010, 04:11 AM	#216
Robin Davies-Rollinson Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gwaelod-y-garth, Cardiff, CYMRU/WALES Posts: 1,215	I think they will: the spec comes within that which broadcasters (BBC in particular) will accept for HD aqcuisition. The EX3 has to use the NanoFlash lash-up...

March 7th, 2010, 06:36 AM	#218
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	Please, oh please, manual controls on the lens. And a great big clear display and eyecup. Broadcast accepted. And under $3,500. Please don't wake me up, I'm enjoying this dream.

March 7th, 2010, 10:38 AM	#219
Pat Reddy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 288	For those of us who aren't necessarily aiming for a BBC-approved, production-level camera, the idea of an under $4000 camera with 4:2:2 and 50 Mbps is still very very exciting - especially with Canon's track record for good glass and a high level of user control. Pat

March 7th, 2010, 06:47 PM	#223
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	1/2 inch full raster chips are easily worth more than a 50mbps 4:2:2 codec alone. It's way harder to break the XDCAM 35 mbps 4:2:0 codec than you think, and until you do, it's hard to spot much difference even with 100 mbps 4:2:2. from my Nanoflash. I would say for Canon stepping up needs even more importantly to fix the chromatic aberrations from the XH-A1/XL-H1 series, and not let that carry over into this new cam. Sony's EX have automatic lens aberration correction built in. It's reasonable to expect Canon to deliver a new best in class image, but you can't break the laws of physics for size. Unless they give it 1/2 inch chips it can't match the shallow depth of field, and likely can't match the low light either. In my opinion it doesn't need to. It can still deliver great images and value within it's market segment and pricepoint, but it won't be an EX killer.

March 7th, 2010, 08:50 PM	#225
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	I'll be disappointed if it doesn't at least equal the EX cams. even at $4K. If not, I'm not sure many will trade in their older A1's. I expect Canon will pull something out of their hat for this one, given their recent moves on the 5D, 7D, and now 2Ti. Who saw those coming as quickly as they did?