Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II at DVinfo.net

Cliff Totten · June 13th, 2015, 09:38 PM

So I thought the Canon XC10 would be all by itself for a while in the 1 inch-type 4k "grab and go" DSLR - styled (sorta) fixed lens camcorder market. However, it looks like Sony is not going to allow that to happen. In fact, Sony has dropped a nuclear bomb on that idea!

I was thinking of grabbing a XC10 for fun but now I'm rethinking that and now looking at Sony's RX10-II. Here is what I see:

RX10-II has....

A FAST zoom lens...

A faster constant aperture f2.8 Zeiss lens. It stays f2.8 across the entire zoom range while the Canon XC10 slows down to f5.6 on the long end. (Why did Canon choose this lens?) Sony even gave the RX10-II THREE internal ND filters!! Focus AND smooth turning Iris lens ring, An actual "ring" instead of a "dial" on the body....Holy smoke!

A higher resolution "stacked" sensor...

20MP sensor that uses 14mp in a 16x9 UHD video crop. It supposedly scans every pixel, over-samples it's image and scales it down to UHD.(roughly 8MP) This delivers extremely high detail UHD quality. About 7,000 green pixels, 3,500 red pixels and 3,500 blue pixels! The Canon XC 10 appears to have a 1:1 pixel read out in UHD. A little over 4,000 green, 2,000 red and 2,000 blue. The Sony RX10-II red, blue and green channels are all SIGNIFICANTLY higher resolution than the XC10's. Hell, the RX10's green channel ALONE is already approaching UHD resolution. It's not far from double that of the XC10's green channel resolution. (ouch!)

High speed frame rates..
.
The Sony RX10-II does several high speed frame rates ( 960 fps, 480 fps, 240 fps) at different resolutions and different qualities...WOW!

Allot more, like ....

Built in flash
Low cost SDXC cards instead of expensive CFast cards.
100Mbp/s XAVC instead of 305Mbp/s UHD codec. (the XC10 does not offer lower long GOP rates and 305Mbp/s INTRA in UHD is actually pretty low)
S-LOG-2 to match Canon's C-LOG
Beautiful OLED (real) viewfinder.
$1,200 CHEAPER than the XC10.

I think that Sony has attacked the Canon XC10 very hard with the RX10-II. Sony must REALLY want to own this market segment. I just don't see Canon being able to justify the $2,500 price tag for a small 1 inch-type sensor camcorder. If Canon keeps that price up with the RX10-II out there, it's just going to be dead on arrival. I suspect that when the RX10-II hits the streets, we will see 10 comparison videos by August on YouTube that all show the RX10-II being the clear winner. (just guessing here folks)

Yes, I know it's too early to say. I get it. I just have a feeling in my gut that the XC10 is going to get spanked next month...and spanked pretty hard at that.

Well?...time will tell. Maybe?...maybe not?.

One thing the RX10-II does not have is a "Canon" logo on it. I suppose that accounts for something in itself today. Maybe that will justify the extra $1,200??

My the best man win....

Mark Dobson · June 14th, 2015, 01:37 AM

I agree with Cliff that on paper the the Sony RX10-II trumps the Canon XC10 but having been lucky enough to have had a good play around with the Canon offering I would hold judgement on which camera is suitable for which situation.

The Canon XC10 is half the weight of the Sony RX10 11 (strange they are both number 10 models?) and I feel that many Cinema Eos owners will find it compliments their cameras very well with its broadcast quality file format and higher bit rate - it provides 4.2.2 8 bit recording at either 200 or 300 mbs. It's very easy to set up with a menu structure that will be very familiar to those with a C100 or C300.

Its very easy to use and will produce professional quality stills and video for those that don't want to drill down through complex menu structures.

But I'm going to try both cameras out before making my decision.

Franklin Bencosme · June 14th, 2015, 05:05 PM

Yes folks new SONY just nock out the Canon xc10,we have CANON 5D2 and 60D,and honestly for my weddings event I want to simplify my work(changing lenses and limit zoom for close up ) with not so expensive BRIDGE CAMERA like this new Sony,woooo TECHNOLOGY is going to fassstttt,yes even we just have to forget about the size of the new cameras to impress the client when doing a wedding work,this was maybe 10 years ago,the world in changing to, so welcome more and more little new cameras,and remember is not what the camera do,is what we can do with the camera !!

The best Franklin

Bill Koehler · June 14th, 2015, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Dobson

The Canon XC10 is half the weight of the Sony RX10 11 ...

The lighter weight of the Canon XC10 is likely a byproduct of the slower and hence lighter lens. On top of that, the Sony camera has an EVF.

Cliff Totten · June 14th, 2015, 07:26 PM

Maybe that is Canon's secret weapon. They used a slower lens because it was lighter. Sony went faster with constant f2.8 and must now pay the "heavier" price. Plus, Sony makes the RX10-II out of magnesium instead of plastic. Another "weight" strike against Sony.

Maybe Canon's XC10 lighter weight advantage will be what people will all want in the end?

Mark Dobson · June 15th, 2015, 09:12 AM

Just a thought here but am I right in thinking that file recording on the Sony RX10 ( and 11) is limited to 29 minutes?

In the UK they used to have this limit so that a device wouldn't be classified as a 'camcorder' because attracted a different tax levy.

If this is the case it would limit the cameras role as a B Cam in certain live situations such as filming presentations or conferences. The workaround would be use an external recorder such as the Atamos Shogun.

The recording limit on the Canon XC10 is governed by the size of the card one is using whether one is recording 4K or 1080p etc.

Barry Goyette · June 15th, 2015, 11:45 AM

I'm not sure where we're getting that the Xc10 is a lighter camera than the RX10. Canon lists the Xc10 at 2.1 lbs, although imaging resource lists it as 36oz with batteries --- either of which is a bit heavier than Sony's stated 1.79 lbs with batteries. (having held both, I'd say the XC10 is quite noticeably heavier and larger.)

I think the primary difference between these cameras is intent. The RX10 is a still camera a relatively advanced video feature set, but a consumer grade codec (100mbs in 4k). I've never really loved the video quality off my version 1 RX10...but the stills are great and I use this camera surprisingly a lot on jobs where I don't need the resolution (or weight) of my hasselblad. The XC10 is a true video camera with a professional 4k codec, and with proper venting of the sensor. It's still capabilities are decent, but nothing to write home about. Essentially these two cameras are bridge concepts with opposite points of view.

Frankly, the lens choice on the XC-10 mystifies me (mostly because the comparisons with the RX10 are so obvious), but for the audience this camera is intended for (bloggers, drone pilots), I think the lens isn't that big of a weakness. Frankly, playing with the prototype at NAB and at other events, I didn't find myself in love with this camera. It doesn't have the usual canon polish in terms of ergonomics and experience, and the snap on viewfinder is...welll...interesting....to put in mildly. From the samples I've seen, I'm not as enamored with the color either. If once the final version hits, the color proves to be a closer match to the new C300, I could see this as a gimbal or B camera...or something for handing off to an assistant for BTS...but that's about it.

Mark Dobson · June 15th, 2015, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

I'm not sure where we're getting that the Xc10 is a lighter camera than the RX10. Canon lists the Xc10 at 2.1 lbs, although imaging resource lists it as 36oz with batteries --- either of which is a bit heavier than Sony's stated 1.79 lbs with batteries. (having held both, I'd say the XC10 is quite noticeably heavier and larger.)

Yep - Apologies, I got that absolutely wrong! I got confused between imperial and metric weights. And a good summary of the potential usage of the two cameras.

Cliff Totten · June 15th, 2015, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

I'm not sure where we're getting that the Xc10 is a lighter camera than the RX10. Canon lists the Xc10 at 2.1 lbs, although imaging resource lists it as 36oz with batteries --- either of which is a bit heavier than Sony's stated 1.79 lbs with batteries. (having held both, I'd say the XC10 is quite noticeably heavier and larger.)

I think the primary difference between these cameras is intent. The RX10 is a still camera a relatively advanced video feature set, but a consumer grade codec (100mbs in 4k). I've never really loved the video quality off my version 1 RX10...but the stills are great and I use this camera surprisingly a lot on jobs where I don't need the resolution (or weight) of my hasselblad. The XC10 is a true video camera with a professional 4k codec, and with proper venting of the sensor. It's still capabilities are decent, but nothing to write home about. Essentially these two cameras are bridge concepts with opposite points of view.

Frankly, the lens choice on the XC-10 mystifies me (mostly because the comparisons with the RX10 are so obvious), but for the audience this camera is intended for (bloggers, drone pilots), I think the lens isn't that big of a weakness. Frankly, playing with the prototype at NAB and at other events, I didn't find myself in love with this camera. It doesn't have the usual canon polish in terms of ergonomics and experience, and the snap on viewfinder is...welll...interesting....to put in mildly. From the samples I've seen, I'm not as enamored with the color either. If once the final version hits, the color proves to be a closer match to the new C300, I could see this as a gimbal or B camera...or something for handing off to an assistant for BTS...but that's about it.

Yes, the RX10-II's 29 minute limitation is actually something that saves the XC10. The RX10-II really cant be used for long form recording unless you have an external recorder to beat the time limit.

Ironically, the $1,200 that you save when buying and RX10-II allows you to buy a 4k ProRes recorder like the 5 inch PIX 5E with 400 to 800Mbp/s. (Not to mention, tons of focus and exposure tools with 3 scopes to boot)

Canon chose an odd "305Mbp/s" bitrate for this Intra-codec. I need to dig deeper into what it uses. (H.264 Intra profile?" If Canon did a long GOP codec at 150Mbp/s, that would have really captured 99.99% of what these small, 1 inch-type sensors can see. And for that? SDXC cards would have easily recorded that. (JVC does it on SDXC with no problems)

ProRes LT (light) starts at 400+Mbps, so Canon's 305Mbp/s is about 100Mbp/s less.

I think in the end, image sensor quality, lens quality, noise and the amount of resolution both camera produce will probably be the biggest selling factors. Usability and ergonomics will be a distant second.....no, "price" will be #2...ergonomics and usability and codec will be #3.

p.s....that RX10's silky smooth iris ring on it's Zeiss lens really makes it that much more tempting.

Chris Norman · June 16th, 2015, 02:52 AM

The RX10-II doesn't have a headphone jack and an external mic needs an optional hot shoe device. I'd consider that a bigger disadvantage than a 29 minute recording limit.

Tom Mussatto · June 16th, 2015, 09:09 AM

If this is correct that would be step down from the Rx10.

Ken Plotin · June 16th, 2015, 10:38 AM

Sony web site shows headphone jack and 3.5 mini mic input.
Ken

Anthony McErlean · June 16th, 2015, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Plotin

Sony web site shows headphone jack and 3.5 mini mic input.
Ken

Yes, just had a look, it shows them. :)

Chris Norman · June 16th, 2015, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Plotin

Sony web site shows headphone jack and 3.5 mini mic input.
Ken

My mistake.. thanks for correcting.

Cliff Totten · June 16th, 2015, 11:30 PM

Yeah, it has full manual level control too with real audio meters.

I need to check the XC10 to see if has 3 ND filters. The RX10-II does.

June 13th, 2015, 09:38 PM	#1
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II So I thought the Canon XC10 would be all by itself for a while in the 1 inch-type 4k "grab and go" DSLR - styled (sorta) fixed lens camcorder market. However, it looks like Sony is not going to allow that to happen. In fact, Sony has dropped a nuclear bomb on that idea! I was thinking of grabbing a XC10 for fun but now I'm rethinking that and now looking at Sony's RX10-II. Here is what I see: RX10-II has.... A FAST zoom lens... A faster constant aperture f2.8 Zeiss lens. It stays f2.8 across the entire zoom range while the Canon XC10 slows down to f5.6 on the long end. (Why did Canon choose this lens?) Sony even gave the RX10-II THREE internal ND filters!! Focus AND smooth turning Iris lens ring, An actual "ring" instead of a "dial" on the body....Holy smoke! A higher resolution "stacked" sensor... 20MP sensor that uses 14mp in a 16x9 UHD video crop. It supposedly scans every pixel, over-samples it's image and scales it down to UHD.(roughly 8MP) This delivers extremely high detail UHD quality. About 7,000 green pixels, 3,500 red pixels and 3,500 blue pixels! The Canon XC 10 appears to have a 1:1 pixel read out in UHD. A little over 4,000 green, 2,000 red and 2,000 blue. The Sony RX10-II red, blue and green channels are all SIGNIFICANTLY higher resolution than the XC10's. Hell, the RX10's green channel ALONE is already approaching UHD resolution. It's not far from double that of the XC10's green channel resolution. (ouch!) High speed frame rates.. . The Sony RX10-II does several high speed frame rates ( 960 fps, 480 fps, 240 fps) at different resolutions and different qualities...WOW! Allot more, like .... Built in flash Low cost SDXC cards instead of expensive CFast cards. 100Mbp/s XAVC instead of 305Mbp/s UHD codec. (the XC10 does not offer lower long GOP rates and 305Mbp/s INTRA in UHD is actually pretty low) S-LOG-2 to match Canon's C-LOG Beautiful OLED (real) viewfinder. $1,200 CHEAPER than the XC10. I think that Sony has attacked the Canon XC10 very hard with the RX10-II. Sony must REALLY want to own this market segment. I just don't see Canon being able to justify the $2,500 price tag for a small 1 inch-type sensor camcorder. If Canon keeps that price up with the RX10-II out there, it's just going to be dead on arrival. I suspect that when the RX10-II hits the streets, we will see 10 comparison videos by August on YouTube that all show the RX10-II being the clear winner. (just guessing here folks) Yes, I know it's too early to say. I get it. I just have a feeling in my gut that the XC10 is going to get spanked next month...and spanked pretty hard at that. Well?...time will tell. Maybe?...maybe not?. One thing the RX10-II does not have is a "Canon" logo on it. I suppose that accounts for something in itself today. Maybe that will justify the extra $1,200?? My the best man win.... Last edited by Cliff Totten; June 14th, 2015 at 08:44 AM.

June 14th, 2015, 07:26 PM	#5
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II Maybe that is Canon's secret weapon. They used a slower lens because it was lighter. Sony went faster with constant f2.8 and must now pay the "heavier" price. Plus, Sony makes the RX10-II out of magnesium instead of plastic. Another "weight" strike against Sony. Maybe Canon's XC10 lighter weight advantage will be what people will all want in the end?

June 15th, 2015, 09:12 AM	#6
Mark Dobson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Horsham / United Kingdom Posts: 328	Re: Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II Just a thought here but am I right in thinking that file recording on the Sony RX10 ( and 11) is limited to 29 minutes? In the UK they used to have this limit so that a device wouldn't be classified as a 'camcorder' because attracted a different tax levy. If this is the case it would limit the cameras role as a B Cam in certain live situations such as filming presentations or conferences. The workaround would be use an external recorder such as the Atamos Shogun. The recording limit on the Canon XC10 is governed by the size of the card one is using whether one is recording 4K or 1080p etc.

June 15th, 2015, 11:45 AM	#7
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	Re: Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II I'm not sure where we're getting that the Xc10 is a lighter camera than the RX10. Canon lists the Xc10 at 2.1 lbs, although imaging resource lists it as 36oz with batteries --- either of which is a bit heavier than Sony's stated 1.79 lbs with batteries. (having held both, I'd say the XC10 is quite noticeably heavier and larger.) I think the primary difference between these cameras is intent. The RX10 is a still camera a relatively advanced video feature set, but a consumer grade codec (100mbs in 4k). I've never really loved the video quality off my version 1 RX10...but the stills are great and I use this camera surprisingly a lot on jobs where I don't need the resolution (or weight) of my hasselblad. The XC10 is a true video camera with a professional 4k codec, and with proper venting of the sensor. It's still capabilities are decent, but nothing to write home about. Essentially these two cameras are bridge concepts with opposite points of view. Frankly, the lens choice on the XC-10 mystifies me (mostly because the comparisons with the RX10 are so obvious), but for the audience this camera is intended for (bloggers, drone pilots), I think the lens isn't that big of a weakness. Frankly, playing with the prototype at NAB and at other events, I didn't find myself in love with this camera. It doesn't have the usual canon polish in terms of ergonomics and experience, and the snap on viewfinder is...welll...interesting....to put in mildly. From the samples I've seen, I'm not as enamored with the color either. If once the final version hits, the color proves to be a closer match to the new C300, I could see this as a gimbal or B camera...or something for handing off to an assistant for BTS...but that's about it. __________________ Barry http://www.barrygoyette.com

June 16th, 2015, 02:52 AM	#10
Chris Norman Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 70	Re: Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II The RX10-II doesn't have a headphone jack and an external mic needs an optional hot shoe device. I'd consider that a bigger disadvantage than a 29 minute recording limit.

June 14th, 2015, 01:37 AM	#2
Mark Dobson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Horsham / United Kingdom Posts: 328	Re: Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II I agree with Cliff that on paper the the Sony RX10-II trumps the Canon XC10 but having been lucky enough to have had a good play around with the Canon offering I would hold judgement on which camera is suitable for which situation. The Canon XC10 is half the weight of the Sony RX10 11 (strange they are both number 10 models?) and I feel that many Cinema Eos owners will find it compliments their cameras very well with its broadcast quality file format and higher bit rate - it provides 4.2.2 8 bit recording at either 200 or 300 mbs. It's very easy to set up with a menu structure that will be very familiar to those with a C100 or C300. Its very easy to use and will produce professional quality stills and video for those that don't want to drill down through complex menu structures. But I'm going to try both cameras out before making my decision.

June 14th, 2015, 05:05 PM	#3
Franklin Bencosme Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Dominican Republic Posts: 135	Re: Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II Yes folks new SONY just nock out the Canon xc10,we have CANON 5D2 and 60D,and honestly for my weddings event I want to simplify my work(changing lenses and limit zoom for close up ) with not so expensive BRIDGE CAMERA like this new Sony,woooo TECHNOLOGY is going to fassstttt,yes even we just have to forget about the size of the new cameras to impress the client when doing a wedding work,this was maybe 10 years ago,the world in changing to, so welcome more and more little new cameras,and remember is not what the camera do,is what we can do with the camera !! The best Franklin

June 16th, 2015, 09:09 AM	#11
Tom Mussatto Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: worden, illinois Posts: 76	Re: Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II If this is correct that would be step down from the Rx10.

June 16th, 2015, 10:38 AM	#12
Ken Plotin Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 254	Re: Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II Sony web site shows headphone jack and 3.5 mini mic input. Ken

June 16th, 2015, 11:30 PM	#15
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: Canon XC10 vs. Sony RX10-II Yeah, it has full manual level control too with real audio meters. I need to check the XC10 to see if has 3 ND filters. The RX10-II does.