Call On All Hv20 Owners - To Test For Dropouts

Mikko Lopponen · January 9th, 2008, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Neal

Whereas in DV you might see a flash frame or a brief flurry of coloured pixels, in HDV you lose at least half a second of recording.

Not necessarily. You can also lose only 1 frame of information on a dropout with hdv. HDV has better error correction than dv and if the dropout occurs at the end of the gop then you only lose the end portion of it.

Ali Husain · January 9th, 2008, 03:27 AM

i've shot box after box after box of tapes, and noticed maybe 2 or 3 dropout in over a year. i also use my camera as a deck for multi-cam shoot ingest. unfortunately something is probably wrong with your camera. i use generic panasonic tape. $3-4 each. you'll definitely have problems if you switch between certain types of tape. search for "dry wet tape"

Clayton Moore · January 9th, 2008, 12:54 PM

There is no information on this from the Canon side that I am aware of.

It seems to be some HDMI playback issue in so much as I have never had to deal with this in any other area. It may be an HDMI controller chip issue. I would think if this was a "known issue" on the Canon side a firmware update or something would be a fix but thats just a guess on my part.

Michael Rosenberger · January 11th, 2008, 09:42 AM

Could just be your camera. I had a wonderful experience (note sarcasm) with my XL1s with constant drop-out issues that took Canon over a year to finally agree that the camera was bad. Sadly, it turned me off from them completely, even though I had *loved* my GL-1 and had no problems with it, including rarely a dropout, for years of hard field use. The HV20 was my first toe-dip back into Canon product waters and I haven't had a problem yet - said knocking on every piece of wood around me.

I'm using the same Sony premium mini-DV tapes I've always used. And actually these are about 4 years old, from when I was shooting a lot and bought several cases.

John Hotze · January 11th, 2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James E Lee

Greetings:

Has this dropped frames problem been resolved by Canon? I bought an HV20 from B&H back in December and although I've only recorded one full tape, I didn't get any dropped frames when I transferred it to my laptop. I plan to test this somemore on my new HV20.

This is not a "Canon" only issue. The half second freeze happens when a certain bit gets written wrong on HD recordings to tape. It happens with some frequency to most everyone shooting minidv in HD mode. I believe that many don't ever see it because they shoot a lot of start stop sequences. I'm sure if you shoot uninterrupted for the full hour on several tapes, you will encounter a dropout. There haven't been any statisticss that show one brand tape is better than another as for as reports about this problem.

If I was a professional shooter shooting HD clips, I would most certainly be purchasing HD certified mindv tapes. Since I'm not, I will live with an occasional drop out and continue to purchase my Sony Premium tapes from B&H for about $2.50 each in quantity.

Charles Eidsvik · January 12th, 2008, 10:40 AM

Dropouts have been a problem since he invention of helical scanned tape.

Many are caused by dirt, but some are caused by loss of the lubricant applied to the tape in manufacture. Small spots on the tape can become dry, and you get a glitch in the picture.

Old pros used to "limber up" the tape and smoothen out the lube by running each new tape (in player, not camera mode) forward to the tape's end, then back. No more (or fewer) dropouts.

Charles Eidsvik

Patrick Bower · January 12th, 2008, 11:10 AM

I'm disappointed by dropouts with my HV20. I generally shoot events, which means a continuous take for up to an hour. I get 3 or 4 major dropouts with each tape. Initially I was using Sony DV premium. I then cleaned the heads and tried Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ, but it is no better. Fortunately I have been using the HV20 as my B camera. Otherwise it would be a disaster. I am now planning to start capturing direct to laptop via firewire.
Patrick

Tony Markle · January 12th, 2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Neal

........ or excessive use of head cleaners.

What do you consider excessive?

The manual states: "To maintain the best picture quality, we recommend using cassettes designed for high definition recording (Canon Digital Videocassette HDVM-E63PR, etc.) and cleaning the video heads frequently with the Canon DVM-CL Digital Video Head Cleaning Cassette or a commercially available dry cleaning cassette."

"frequently", being the operative word.

Tony

Hermawan Tjioe · January 12th, 2008, 01:23 PM

I've had mine since Sept 2007, shot more than 20 hours, and have not detected any drop-outs. Some of the shot sequence was 20 minutes long straight. This year I'll be taping long form shoot sequences and will check if any occurs.

Magnus Monfeldt · February 1st, 2008, 11:31 AM

Hi all,

I just got back from a trip to Argentina where I shot my first 7 hrs with the newly aquired A1 (pal), using Panasonic PQ's all the way through. The whole project was shot in SD and I have a minimum of 1 dropout per tape. Over 5 years with my Sony TRV-900 I didn't have any at all, except for when sound peaked. Is it worth having the A1 checked out, or is this a "normal" thing? It seems like a lot of us are struggling with the same problem, it just doesn't seem acceptable from a 3800 euro camera. Not to mention that I can't really afford it timewise to service the cam right now. Any suggestions that haven't already been exhausted?

Bets regards,

Magnus

Robert Ducon · February 1st, 2008, 01:06 PM

My HV20 has never given me a dropout. Probably shot 25 tapes so far - all the same brand. Which is pleasing.

In terms of HDV, I used to get a drop-out a tape using a rental Sony Z1U and FX1, but I'm sure that's because they were rentals and had different tapes being used with them.

Paul Nixon · February 2nd, 2008, 02:24 PM

I've got a Sony HC1 and have experienced various types of drop-outs:

Dropout Type 1 - the type that moves around. I did one event shoot (1 hour) and when I went back to capture, the signal was really messed up. I had to capture 8 times and then splice the mess together in an editor, syncing up take 1 - 8 - royal pain.

Type 2 - the permanent drop-out - no matter how many times I replay the tape, the drop out remains the same.

Type 3 - the growth drop-out. This is an unusual one in that a portion at the beginning of the tape (say, the first 5 seconds) doesn't show up first time around on either the camera LCD or the computer. The second time, the first 15 seconds will now be missing. The third time it is now 23 seconds, etc. (all times are examples). And yet when I "Preview" that portion of tape using the Cue/Review functions, I see the missing footage on the camera's LCD.

The problems seem to be tape related - a bad tape is a bad tape (I've had only two that I would call "bad", and this is from about 50+ tapes). Brand doesn't seem to matter either - the camera is happy to shoot on JVC, Panasonic, Fuji, Maxell. I even tried the Sony and Panasonic HD tapes but they didn't seem to perform any differently than any other tape. I say it seems to be tape related because the next tapes (so far) have performed just fine indicating that the heads were not clogged or are no longer clogged. The bad tapes were about a year apart.

Anyway, I know this is an HV20 thread, but I'm thinking about getting one as a second HD cam, and this topic was of interest.

Duncan Craig · February 2nd, 2008, 02:59 PM

I'm looking seriously at an HV20 as a capture deck and holiday handycam.

I can't see what possible difference the length of recording time will make in whether you get drop out or not.

Secondly, I've had maybe three or four visible dropouts on my Z1 in HDV mode since I bought it (just after launch). Everytime, I simply recaptured the clip and the drop out was fixed. So just a playback issue for me.

Good luck folks,
Duncan.

Adriano Apefos · February 12th, 2008, 03:32 PM

I used HV20 to do some 35mm adapter footage and used a Tape Rewinder too. I saw lots of image freezing and sound disapearing in the footage. I used three tapes and the problem was in all. Some of this dropouts was recorded and I saw them everytime I rewind the tape and see again. Some image freezing disapear when I rewind the tape. So I concluded some dropouts was happening in playback.

Sudenly I had the Idea of rewind the tape in the camcorder and stop using the tape rewinder. The playback dropouts disapear. So I rewind the tape in camcorder and recorded again and rewind the tape in camcorder to do the playback. All the dropouts disapear. So I concluded the problem was the tape rewinder. So if you get dropouts (image freezing) do fast forward and rewind the tape in the camcorder and your new recording will be free of dopouts.

Jim Miller · February 13th, 2008, 11:12 AM

I've had my A1 and HV 20 for 5 months. I have yet to see a drop out. I use only Panasonic AY-DVM63MQ tapes - boxes and boxes of them. I rarely shoot more than 15 min per take and NEVER shoot in the first or last 90 seconds of the tape. I clean the heads with a cleaning tape for 10 seconds once per box of tape.

January 9th, 2008, 12:54 PM	#33
Clayton Moore Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Sacramento, Ca. Posts: 70	Not that Im aware of There is no information on this from the Canon side that I am aware of. It seems to be some HDMI playback issue in so much as I have never had to deal with this in any other area. It may be an HDMI controller chip issue. I would think if this was a "known issue" on the Canon side a firmware update or something would be a fix but thats just a guess on my part.

January 11th, 2008, 09:42 AM	#34
Michael Rosenberger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Surprise, Arizona Posts: 143	Could just be your camera. I had a wonderful experience (note sarcasm) with my XL1s with constant drop-out issues that took Canon over a year to finally agree that the camera was bad. Sadly, it turned me off from them completely, even though I had loved my GL-1 and had no problems with it, including rarely a dropout, for years of hard field use. The HV20 was my first toe-dip back into Canon product waters and I haven't had a problem yet - said knocking on every piece of wood around me. I'm using the same Sony premium mini-DV tapes I've always used. And actually these are about 4 years old, from when I was shooting a lot and bought several cases. __________________ Michael Rosenberger Sure I'll shoot your wedding, for two million dollars.

January 12th, 2008, 10:40 AM	#36
Charles Eidsvik Tourist Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Athens, Georgia, USA Posts: 1	try limbering the tape Dropouts have been a problem since he invention of helical scanned tape. Many are caused by dirt, but some are caused by loss of the lubricant applied to the tape in manufacture. Small spots on the tape can become dry, and you get a glitch in the picture. Old pros used to "limber up" the tape and smoothen out the lube by running each new tape (in player, not camera mode) forward to the tape's end, then back. No more (or fewer) dropouts. Charles Eidsvik

February 1st, 2008, 11:31 AM	#40
Magnus Monfeldt Tourist Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 4	Tape dropouts Hi all, I just got back from a trip to Argentina where I shot my first 7 hrs with the newly aquired A1 (pal), using Panasonic PQ's all the way through. The whole project was shot in SD and I have a minimum of 1 dropout per tape. Over 5 years with my Sony TRV-900 I didn't have any at all, except for when sound peaked. Is it worth having the A1 checked out, or is this a "normal" thing? It seems like a lot of us are struggling with the same problem, it just doesn't seem acceptable from a 3800 euro camera. Not to mention that I can't really afford it timewise to service the cam right now. Any suggestions that haven't already been exhausted? Bets regards, Magnus

February 1st, 2008, 01:06 PM	#41
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	My HV20 has never given me a dropout. Probably shot 25 tapes so far - all the same brand. Which is pleasing. In terms of HDV, I used to get a drop-out a tape using a rental Sony Z1U and FX1, but I'm sure that's because they were rentals and had different tapes being used with them. __________________ Mac + Canon HV20

January 9th, 2008, 03:27 AM	#32
Ali Husain Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 141	i've shot box after box after box of tapes, and noticed maybe 2 or 3 dropout in over a year. i also use my camera as a deck for multi-cam shoot ingest. unfortunately something is probably wrong with your camera. i use generic panasonic tape. $3-4 each. you'll definitely have problems if you switch between certain types of tape. search for "dry wet tape"

January 12th, 2008, 11:10 AM	#37
Patrick Bower Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: London, England Posts: 126	I'm disappointed by dropouts with my HV20. I generally shoot events, which means a continuous take for up to an hour. I get 3 or 4 major dropouts with each tape. Initially I was using Sony DV premium. I then cleaned the heads and tried Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ, but it is no better. Fortunately I have been using the HV20 as my B camera. Otherwise it would be a disaster. I am now planning to start capturing direct to laptop via firewire. Patrick

January 12th, 2008, 01:23 PM	#39
Hermawan Tjioe Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Visalia, CA Posts: 33	I've had mine since Sept 2007, shot more than 20 hours, and have not detected any drop-outs. Some of the shot sequence was 20 minutes long straight. This year I'll be taping long form shoot sequences and will check if any occurs.

February 2nd, 2008, 02:24 PM	#42
Paul Nixon Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 141	I've got a Sony HC1 and have experienced various types of drop-outs: Dropout Type 1 - the type that moves around. I did one event shoot (1 hour) and when I went back to capture, the signal was really messed up. I had to capture 8 times and then splice the mess together in an editor, syncing up take 1 - 8 - royal pain. Type 2 - the permanent drop-out - no matter how many times I replay the tape, the drop out remains the same. Type 3 - the growth drop-out. This is an unusual one in that a portion at the beginning of the tape (say, the first 5 seconds) doesn't show up first time around on either the camera LCD or the computer. The second time, the first 15 seconds will now be missing. The third time it is now 23 seconds, etc. (all times are examples). And yet when I "Preview" that portion of tape using the Cue/Review functions, I see the missing footage on the camera's LCD. The problems seem to be tape related - a bad tape is a bad tape (I've had only two that I would call "bad", and this is from about 50+ tapes). Brand doesn't seem to matter either - the camera is happy to shoot on JVC, Panasonic, Fuji, Maxell. I even tried the Sony and Panasonic HD tapes but they didn't seem to perform any differently than any other tape. I say it seems to be tape related because the next tapes (so far) have performed just fine indicating that the heads were not clogged or are no longer clogged. The bad tapes were about a year apart. Anyway, I know this is an HV20 thread, but I'm thinking about getting one as a second HD cam, and this topic was of interest.

February 2nd, 2008, 02:59 PM	#43
Duncan Craig Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 660 Images: 10	I'm looking seriously at an HV20 as a capture deck and holiday handycam. I can't see what possible difference the length of recording time will make in whether you get drop out or not. Secondly, I've had maybe three or four visible dropouts on my Z1 in HDV mode since I bought it (just after launch). Everytime, I simply recaptured the clip and the drop out was fixed. So just a playback issue for me. Good luck folks, Duncan.

February 12th, 2008, 03:32 PM	#44
Adriano Apefos Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belo Horizonte BRAZIL Posts: 154	dropout is a fast forward rewind problem I used HV20 to do some 35mm adapter footage and used a Tape Rewinder too. I saw lots of image freezing and sound disapearing in the footage. I used three tapes and the problem was in all. Some of this dropouts was recorded and I saw them everytime I rewind the tape and see again. Some image freezing disapear when I rewind the tape. So I concluded some dropouts was happening in playback. Sudenly I had the Idea of rewind the tape in the camcorder and stop using the tape rewinder. The playback dropouts disapear. So I rewind the tape in camcorder and recorded again and rewind the tape in camcorder to do the playback. All the dropouts disapear. So I concluded the problem was the tape rewinder. So if you get dropouts (image freezing) do fast forward and rewind the tape in the camcorder and your new recording will be free of dopouts.

February 13th, 2008, 11:12 AM	#45
Jim Miller Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tampa,Florida Posts: 236	I've had my A1 and HV 20 for 5 months. I have yet to see a drop out. I use only Panasonic AY-DVM63MQ tapes - boxes and boxes of them. I rarely shoot more than 15 min per take and NEVER shoot in the first or last 90 seconds of the tape. I clean the heads with a cleaning tape for 10 seconds once per box of tape.