HV20: to CINE MODE or not at DVinfo.net

Nathan Shane · June 7th, 2007, 10:54 AM

Can anyone explain exactly what is "technically" taking place to the image when using the Cine Mode setting on the HV20. Just saying that the setting achieves a "film-look" does nothing to explain the technical specs.

Does Cine Mode change things dynamically or is it fixed and unchanging?

Is it a cinematic color-scheme?

Could the results of Cine Mode be recreated in post editing in Vegas?

In other words, if it's something you could recreate with software, then why use it on captured footage to begin with?

Wes Vasher · June 7th, 2007, 11:37 AM

Cine mode seems to have a much lower contrast setting than the other modes which helps maintain more dynamic range... at least that's been my experience. You can't get that information back in post.

Robert Ducon · June 7th, 2007, 01:04 PM

I shoot in CINE mode pretty much all the time (unless I really need to get that shutter speed up).

Film look? I wouldn't go that far. It does make the image different than 'standard video'... it seems to give more dynamic range which allows me to tune it more in post (get more contrast only if I want).

I don't think it could be recreated in post. In my experience, it gives you more image to play with in post.

I'm interested in what others have to say about it.

Chris Barcellos · June 7th, 2007, 01:17 PM

I've seen some speculation that this mode cannot not be duplicated by the manual settings on the camera. Other speculation is that the setting is ported in from a Canon A1 preset. To me, that would mean that there is more on board the camera than we get access to.... so some hacker may come up with a way to access more in this camera.

I do agree that the setting does give the appearance of a more dynamic range, but whether that is technically possible is another question. I also agree that it seems easier to modify and correct color because this setting appears to depress the higher settings of this camera in the other modes.

Peter J Alessandria · June 7th, 2007, 01:51 PM

I vote "Not" on CineMode. The fact that I can't lock my shutter (without locking my overall exposure) kills it. But also the increased gamma/decreased contrast makes the image too "grey" and too soft for me. Haven't tried but I think you could come pretty close to your own version of CineMode using Vegas.

Elmer Lang · June 7th, 2007, 01:57 PM

I, too, find this an interesting question, which prompts several questions for Cinemode users.

Why do you use it?

How do you use it, ie do you usually tweak custom settings (sharpness, etc) and for what reasons? Any info on the use of custom settings is appreciated.

Isn't the Cinemode image a bit softer (ie, have less resolution) than other settings, or is that my imagination?

How does that image provide greater latitude in post?

Some posters in this thread have already stated their reasons somewhat, but I'd love to hear others, too. Thanks.

Presently, I use tv mode and toggle to get my exposure manually.

best,
elmer

Nathan Shane · June 7th, 2007, 02:12 PM

Well, I just emailed Canon customer support asking if they could provide a white-paper or some sort of technical explanation as to what takes place technically with Cine Mode. I'd be pleased if they actually do answer my question, guess we'll see.

Chris, you mentioned about the possibility of it being a ported preset from the Canon A1, which preset are you talking about?

Elmer, I agree with you that is seems like Cinemode is a bit softer image, but perhaps it is our imagination. Since this camera is so new to me, I'm still experimenting with settings to see which footage looks best to my eyes.

Fergus Anderson · June 7th, 2007, 02:22 PM

there is no doubt that cine is softer but it sharpens well in vegas.

i find that in 25p cine alters the shutter but in 50i cine mode keeps the shutter at 50 no matter I chuck at it!

Noah Yuan-Vogel · June 7th, 2007, 02:44 PM

there are two main things CINE mode is good for in my mind, dynamic range and a clean image. CINE mode is probably softer because image sharpening is turned down. That is a good thing, you can always clip blacks/highlights and increase contrast and add sharpening in post. It is much more difficult to undo them in post when the image has been recorded with digital sharpening and high contrast. A nice log light response curve is generally a good thing, a good 8bit log or log-like curve is as close as we are going to get to getting 10bit linear info, and it's the best way to fit 8 stops or more of range into an 8bit image. If you are ever doing any effects with your video, you're going to want to sharpen AFTER adding the effects, not in-camera when capturing. In-camera sharpening just further taxes a video compression codec that is already trying to compress a lot of data into an incredibly small file.

Chris Barcellos · June 7th, 2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan Shane

Chris, you mentioned about the possibility of it being a ported preset from the Canon A1, which preset are you talking about?

I saw a reference in passing while looking at one of the earlier threads on this camera, but I haven't had time to go back and track it down. Since I don't have an A1, I didn't pay much heed to it. And, as I indicated, it was speculation from someone who had an A1.

Chris Barcellos · June 7th, 2007, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noah Yuan-Vogel

there are two main things CINE mode is good for in my mind, dynamic range and a clean image. CINE mode is probably softer because image sharpening is turned down. That is a good thing, you can always clip blacks/highlights and increase contrast and add sharpening in post. It is much more difficult to undo them in post when the image has been recorded with digital sharpening and high contrast. A nice log light response curve is generally a good thing, a good 8bit log or log-like curve is as close as we are going to get to getting 10bit linear info, and it's the best way to fit 8 stops or more of range into an 8bit image. If you are ever doing any effects with your video, you're going to want to sharpen AFTER adding the effects, not in-camera when capturing. In-camera sharpening just further taxes a video compression codec that is already trying to compress a lot of data into an incredibly small file.

This is right on.... I ve notices that captures in a lot of the top end cameras for "film" start out with a flat looking image. I used Cinemode on a couple projects now, and noted that they were easy to add or subtract brightness, contrast or color correction.

Nathan Shane · June 7th, 2007, 04:09 PM

Just got Canon's response, not much of one really.

Canon Customer Service:

"Thank you for your inquiry. We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you with the HV20. This is an effect you can create post in production as well. It is capturing the same 60fps but excluding all but 24fps, since that is what is used for cinematic movies. You can achieve the same results using a filter in software like Magic Bullet. However, most of our consumers feel that the camera's effect is more realistic."

Robert Ducon · June 7th, 2007, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan Shane

"Thank you for your inquiry. We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you with the HV20. This is an effect you can create post in production as well. It is capturing the same 60fps but excluding all but 24fps, since that is what is used for cinematic movies. You can achieve the same results using a filter in software like Magic Bullet. However, most of our consumers feel that the camera's effect is more realistic."

Yeah, that doesn't cut it. I don't believe it.. rather talk to an engineer, thanks.

Blake Calhoun · June 7th, 2007, 09:14 PM

That response from Canon seems like it's referring to 24p and not the "Cinemode" setting?

Someone earlier mentioned shooting flat, and to me that's what this mode does and is good for. Also, I think the Gamma curves are more "cinematic".

Shooting flat is the best way to shoot if you plan to color correct and do effects work (but mainly color correct). It's also the best way to shoot if you're looking to do a filmout.

I shoot with the Panasonic Varicam a lot and use the "FILM REC" mode which is VERY flat, but it gives you the most dynamic range. If you've every shot film before it's amazing how washed out and flat a good negative looks before you go through a telecine. Typically you'd do high-end correction on Varicam footage like this in a DaVinci suite (just like with film).

Likely though HV20 footage is not going to go this route, but I think it's doing a similar thing. I use it, but I probaby use TV mode more to keep my shutter at a constant 1/48.

Peter J Alessandria · June 7th, 2007, 10:03 PM

I don't think it's really expanding the camera/sensor's dynamic range. It just takes all the contrast out of the image so no highlights clip and your shadows are kinda murky. You can do the same by underexposing your image in non-CineMode. Then try bringing up your midtones in your editng software to create a nice cinematic look. That's what Solomon did on the "Rainy Day" footage everyone loved.

June 7th, 2007, 10:54 AM	#1
Nathan Shane Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Addison, Texas Posts: 178	HV20: to CINE MODE or not Can anyone explain exactly what is "technically" taking place to the image when using the Cine Mode setting on the HV20. Just saying that the setting achieves a "film-look" does nothing to explain the technical specs. Does Cine Mode change things dynamically or is it fixed and unchanging? Is it a cinematic color-scheme? Could the results of Cine Mode be recreated in post editing in Vegas? In other words, if it's something you could recreate with software, then why use it on captured footage to begin with?

June 7th, 2007, 11:37 AM	#2
Wes Vasher Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 440	Cine mode seems to have a much lower contrast setting than the other modes which helps maintain more dynamic range... at least that's been my experience. You can't get that information back in post. __________________ Clips \| Stills

June 7th, 2007, 01:04 PM	#3
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	I shoot in CINE mode pretty much all the time (unless I really need to get that shutter speed up). Film look? I wouldn't go that far. It does make the image different than 'standard video'... it seems to give more dynamic range which allows me to tune it more in post (get more contrast only if I want). I don't think it could be recreated in post. In my experience, it gives you more image to play with in post. I'm interested in what others have to say about it. __________________ Mac + Canon HV20

June 7th, 2007, 01:17 PM	#4
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I've seen some speculation that this mode cannot not be duplicated by the manual settings on the camera. Other speculation is that the setting is ported in from a Canon A1 preset. To me, that would mean that there is more on board the camera than we get access to.... so some hacker may come up with a way to access more in this camera. I do agree that the setting does give the appearance of a more dynamic range, but whether that is technically possible is another question. I also agree that it seems easier to modify and correct color because this setting appears to depress the higher settings of this camera in the other modes. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

June 7th, 2007, 01:51 PM	#5
Peter J Alessandria Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 293	Not I vote "Not" on CineMode. The fact that I can't lock my shutter (without locking my overall exposure) kills it. But also the increased gamma/decreased contrast makes the image too "grey" and too soft for me. Haven't tried but I think you could come pretty close to your own version of CineMode using Vegas.

June 7th, 2007, 01:57 PM	#6
Elmer Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NY, NY Posts: 319	I, too, find this an interesting question, which prompts several questions for Cinemode users. Why do you use it? How do you use it, ie do you usually tweak custom settings (sharpness, etc) and for what reasons? Any info on the use of custom settings is appreciated. Isn't the Cinemode image a bit softer (ie, have less resolution) than other settings, or is that my imagination? How does that image provide greater latitude in post? Some posters in this thread have already stated their reasons somewhat, but I'd love to hear others, too. Thanks. Presently, I use tv mode and toggle to get my exposure manually. best, elmer

June 7th, 2007, 02:12 PM	#7
Nathan Shane Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Addison, Texas Posts: 178	Well, I just emailed Canon customer support asking if they could provide a white-paper or some sort of technical explanation as to what takes place technically with Cine Mode. I'd be pleased if they actually do answer my question, guess we'll see. Chris, you mentioned about the possibility of it being a ported preset from the Canon A1, which preset are you talking about? Elmer, I agree with you that is seems like Cinemode is a bit softer image, but perhaps it is our imagination. Since this camera is so new to me, I'm still experimenting with settings to see which footage looks best to my eyes.

June 7th, 2007, 02:22 PM	#8
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	there is no doubt that cine is softer but it sharpens well in vegas. i find that in 25p cine alters the shutter but in 50i cine mode keeps the shutter at 50 no matter I chuck at it!

June 7th, 2007, 02:44 PM	#9
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	there are two main things CINE mode is good for in my mind, dynamic range and a clean image. CINE mode is probably softer because image sharpening is turned down. That is a good thing, you can always clip blacks/highlights and increase contrast and add sharpening in post. It is much more difficult to undo them in post when the image has been recorded with digital sharpening and high contrast. A nice log light response curve is generally a good thing, a good 8bit log or log-like curve is as close as we are going to get to getting 10bit linear info, and it's the best way to fit 8 stops or more of range into an 8bit image. If you are ever doing any effects with your video, you're going to want to sharpen AFTER adding the effects, not in-camera when capturing. In-camera sharpening just further taxes a video compression codec that is already trying to compress a lot of data into an incredibly small file.

June 7th, 2007, 04:09 PM	#12
Nathan Shane Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Addison, Texas Posts: 178	Just got Canon's response, not much of one really. Canon Customer Service: "Thank you for your inquiry. We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you with the HV20. This is an effect you can create post in production as well. It is capturing the same 60fps but excluding all but 24fps, since that is what is used for cinematic movies. You can achieve the same results using a filter in software like Magic Bullet. However, most of our consumers feel that the camera's effect is more realistic."

June 7th, 2007, 09:14 PM	#14
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	That response from Canon seems like it's referring to 24p and not the "Cinemode" setting? Someone earlier mentioned shooting flat, and to me that's what this mode does and is good for. Also, I think the Gamma curves are more "cinematic". Shooting flat is the best way to shoot if you plan to color correct and do effects work (but mainly color correct). It's also the best way to shoot if you're looking to do a filmout. I shoot with the Panasonic Varicam a lot and use the "FILM REC" mode which is VERY flat, but it gives you the most dynamic range. If you've every shot film before it's amazing how washed out and flat a good negative looks before you go through a telecine. Typically you'd do high-end correction on Varicam footage like this in a DaVinci suite (just like with film). Likely though HV20 footage is not going to go this route, but I think it's doing a similar thing. I use it, but I probaby use TV mode more to keep my shutter at a constant 1/48. __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

June 7th, 2007, 10:03 PM	#15
Peter J Alessandria Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 293	I don't think it's really expanding the camera/sensor's dynamic range. It just takes all the contrast out of the image so no highlights clip and your shadows are kinda murky. You can do the same by underexposing your image in non-CineMode. Then try bringing up your midtones in your editng software to create a nice cinematic look. That's what Solomon did on the "Rainy Day" footage everyone loved.