HV20: to CINE MODE or not

[Robert Ducon]

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

I am a compositor and even film footage looks kind of crappy before it gets enhanced and color corrected. Have any of you ever watched a DVD that had deleted scenes and those scene looked really washed out? Well that is because to save money they just puyt thsoe scenes on the DVD as is without color timing since that would cost a lot of money.

Cinemode is really designed to fake the look of color correcting the footage so consumers can shoot video right out of the camera that looks like it has been enhanced and has a nice pleasing polished look.

I don't agree that CINE mode fakes colour correcting - it can't pretend to 'correct' anything - it simply offers a different (overall flatter) look to the image (and I believe this includes adding a curve to the footage to offer more control in post).

CINE mode doesn't look polished unless it's run through colour correcting - but that's the point IMO.

I truly believe its offering greater latitude and less sharpening. I just did some more colour correcting of landscape footage shot in the last few days with the HV20 and wide angle, and yes, it needed work (too flat before hand) but look fantastic after a few touches of the colour wheels while watching the histograms, etc. Blew away some people's expectations of HDV and 'consumer' gear.

Chris, I would suggest CINE to anyone with time for post. You probably won't - 48 hour films don't have time for rendering, sadly :( I'd say, pump up the contrast in the camera in another setting and run and gun. You'll have enough trouble on your hands looking after location audio and ensuring proper focus pulls. Good luck!

CINE Mode + (Colour Correction + Render Time) = Best Image in the end

[Ian G. Thompson]

Originally Posted by Robert Ducon

I don't agree that CINE mode fakes colour correcting - it can't pretend to 'correct' anything - it simply offers a different (overall flatter) look to the image (and I believe this includes adding a curve to the footage to offer more control in post).

CINE mode doesn't look polished unless it's run through colour correcting - but that's the point IMO.

I truly believe its offering greater latitude and less sharpening. I just did some more colour correcting of landscape footage shot in the last few days with the HV20 and wide angle, and yes, it needed work (too flat before hand) but look fantastic after a few touches of the colour wheels while watching the histograms, etc. Blew away some people's expectations of HDV and 'consumer' gear.

Chris, I would suggest CINE to anyone with time for post. You probably won't - 48 hour films don't have time for rendering, sadly :( I'd say, pump up the contrast in the camera in another setting and run and gun. You'll have enough trouble on your hands looking after location audio and ensuring proper focus pulls. Good luck!

CINE Mode + (Colour Correction + Render Time) = Best Image in the end

You know...I was so againts Cinemode before this thread started. I absolutely hated the look..didn't know what advantage it had ...but since then I have been shooting with it more and more...and let me tell you...I found you can do a hell of a lot more with the footage in post than shooting any other way. Whenever I use my histogram in my NLE and throw in an autolevel plugin...it just spreads out nice and easy and the picture stands out even more. I think I'm lovin this Cinemode.

Yes..it looks flat straight out of the box...but that is the way it is supposed to be.

[Robert Ducon]

Originally Posted by Ian G. Thompson

You know...I was so againts Cinemode before this thread started. I absolutely hated the look..didn't know what advantage it had ...but since then I have been shooting with it more and more...and let me tell you...I found you can do a hell of a lot more with the footage in post than shooting any other way. Whenever I use my histogram in my NLE and throw in an autolevel plugin...it just spreads out nice and easy and the picture stands out even more. I think I'm lovin this Cinemode.

Yes..it looks flat straight out of the box...but that is the way it is supposed to be.

Ian, that's the way I see it! For those that shoot to do post, it works fantastic.

Any ideas on sharpness? I've been shooting with CINE and the custom sharpness to it's lowest setting, but it's looking too soft - even when I do a sharpen in post. What are other's findings?

[Ian Albinson]

Originally Posted by Robert Ducon

Any ideas on sharpness? I've been shooting with CINE and the custom sharpness to it's lowest setting, but it's looking too soft - even when I do a sharpen in post. What are other's findings?

I've been very happy with the following settings:

CINE MODE with Custom set to -
Sharpness +1
Contrast 0
Brightness -1
Color +1

[Fergus Anderson]

I find if I dont have time for post the following gives cine mode more contrast and saturation while maintaining the benefit of not blowing out highlights etc. The footage would still benefit from a medium sharpen (I use vegas)

CINE MODE with Custom set to -
Sharpness +1 (this doesnt seem to do much)
Contrast +1
Brightness 0
Color +1

[Ian G. Thompson]

So far these are the settings I have been using:

CINE MODE with Custom set to -
Sharpness +1 (Does nothing to the picture)
Contrast -1
Brightness -1
Color 0

Quite frankly this is working excellent for me. I still want to try it with the contrast set higher but i am a happy camper so far.

Robert I don't even try to sharpen it in post. It is less sharp than normal mode but I find that it makes the overall picture less videoy. Overall it's still sharp with lots of detail. I think my eyes had to warm up to this look and I like especially knowing that I could do a bit more in post with mode.

[Robert Ducon]

Thanks for sharing! The reason I asked were this past weekend I had the lucky chance to monitor and colour-correct from the best LCD HD TV i've had the honour of seeing. I twas really nice to see my footage as it was meant to be. Taught me alot about how HDV really looks. I will continue to swear by the HV20 and CINE mode from now on. Sony Z1U and FX1 footage truly looks awful an grainy compared to the Canon.

G Film Chroma Sharpen Plugin really saves HDV footage.. makes 4:2:0 look like it was always 4:2:2. Best post-HDV camera investment yet ($100!)

And Ian, I agree.. it's plenty sharp while retaining the natural look. It amazes me how high Canon set the bar - I am so pleased.

[Nathan Shane]

Hey guys, looks like we are all coming to some very similar CINE MODE settings, for me it's:

CINE MODE with Custom set to -
Sharpness +1
Contrast 0
Brightness 0 (or -1 but undecided*)
Color +1

*I say undecided because checking all the subtle changes via TV, I really cannot see that changing the Brightness is making any change at all, not even remotely subtle. I can definitely tell changing the other three settings makes a visually noticable difference, but I'm not convinced that Brightness is doing anything in CineMode. (but I could be wrong)

To reply to Fergus' comments about the Sharpness not seeming to do much. I had thought that originally too, and it took me finding the right subject matter to point the camera at to actually see the differences while monitoring on the TV. I zoomed in all the way onto the strings/frets/pearl-inlays of a guitar neck...it was all those horizontal/vertical lines that actually allowed me to see the difference in sharpness settings. In fact, as I write this, I think I will pull out a spool of thread and test with that as well. Anyway, my conclusion is that the Sharpness setting does make a difference.

Now...if anyone could give me an example of how to prove the Brightness setting under Cine Mode works, please tell me how.

[Ian G. Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nathan Shane

I zoomed in all the way onto the strings/frets/pearl-inlays of a guitar neck...it was all those horizontal/vertical lines that actually allowed me to see the difference in sharpness settings. In fact, as I write this, I think I will pull out a spool of thread and test with that as well. Anyway, my conclusion is that the Sharpness setting does make a difference.

Hmm.. that is good to know. It must be a more subtle change than in the other modes. When I am in TV mode I can see what is happening when I toggle between -1, 0, and +1. But in Cinemode I am unable to tell. This goes to show that we really can't rely on the cams LCD Display to tell us the whole story. Interesting indeed.

[Nathan Shane]

Well, after much experimentation, I finally "get" the HV20 much better. I had previously read Barry Green's Controlling Exposure article and admit that is still had me scratching my head about some things.

But, I just came to the realization that if you've got the camera set for HDV(24p) and CineMode, and using the half-pressed photo button, you can pan the camera around the room half-pressing the photo button to check settings, and there can be a "video sweet spot" that's got a shutter speed of 1/48 and and F-stop that produces a really well-lit image...then by changing the EXP setting, you temporarily move away from the 0 setting (I did -1), then immediately back to 0 (then press SET to exit) and the camera will be completely locked into unchanging settings.

I was able to find a "video sweet spot" that allowed me to lock the camera with a F2.2 and 1/48 settings. As I pan around the room and check things out via my TV as a monitor, what I see with my own eyes is what is showing on the TV, and there is absolutely none of the auto-shutter, auto-aperture thingy happening that makes the image change in undesirable ways...continuous re-pressing of the photo button (as you point the camera towards areas that are lighter to darker) completely confirms that all the settings are locked and nothing is changing.

You can then add any additional lighting to taste to fill in any areas that may need some help that cannot come from the camera since its settings are locked.

[John Hotze]

I just came to this thread blindly and will give you my reason for Cine. I'm a wing it kind of person and definitely not as sophiscated and knowledgeable as most of you. I was shooting video at an 8 day bluegrass festival last week and for some reason I decided to venture away from my usual TV mode to Cine. Frankly, I liked how it looked in the cameral LCD display when I viewed what I was shooting in Cine mode. Once I saw the difference and liked it, I didn't go back to TV for the whole week. I'm now starting to edit my files. I will not be doing any color, contrast or other changes in post. I've already previewed several tapes playing directly from my camera via HDMI to my 32" LCD display and am lovin' what I am seeing. Of course my love of the music and the artists doesn't hurt. So IMHO, I think Cine mode is great and will probably continue to shoot most of my videos in Cine.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by John Hotze

I just came to this thread blindly and will give you my reason for Cine. I'm a wing it kind of person and definitely not as sophiscated and knowledgeable as most of you. I was shooting video at an 8 day bluegrass festival last week and for some reason I decided to venture away from my usual TV mode to Cine. Frankly, I liked how it looked in the cameral LCD display when I viewed what I was shooting in Cine mode. Once I saw the difference and liked it, I didn't go back to TV for the whole week. I'm now starting to edit my files. I will not be doing any color, contrast or other changes in post. I've already previewed several tapes playing directly from my camera via HDMI to my 32" LCD display and am lovin' what I am seeing. Of course my love of the music and the artists doesn't hurt. So IMHO, I think Cine mode is great and will probably continue to shoot most of my videos in Cine.

John:

How did you mic it ?

[Bruno Donnet]

Originally Posted by Nathan Shane

To reply to Fergus' comments about the Sharpness not seeming to do much. I had thought that originally too, and it took me finding the right subject matter to point the camera at to actually see the differences while monitoring on the TV. I zoomed in all the way onto the strings/frets/pearl-inlays of a guitar neck...it was all those horizontal/vertical lines that actually allowed me to see the difference in sharpness settings.

Nathan, may I ask you to extract some jpg photos of your videos at sharpness = 0 and at sharpness = +1 (and why not +2) to permit to us to appreciate the exact latitude of these sharpness settings?

Thx

[Fergus Anderson]

thanks Nathan - it seems pretty subtle but I would love to see some jpg's.

Personally I find an obvious change when putting the contrast to +1 (from -1) It does darken the blacks and loose some of the greyness to the image.

Originally Posted by Nathan Shane

Hey guys, looks like we are all coming to some very similar CINE MODE settings, for me it's:

CINE MODE with Custom set to -
Sharpness +1
Contrast 0
Brightness 0 (or -1 but undecided*)
Color +1

*I say undecided because checking all the subtle changes via TV, I really cannot see that changing the Brightness is making any change at all, not even remotely subtle. I can definitely tell changing the other three settings makes a visually noticable difference, but I'm not convinced that Brightness is doing anything in CineMode. (but I could be wrong)

To reply to Fergus' comments about the Sharpness not seeming to do much. I had thought that originally too, and it took me finding the right subject matter to point the camera at to actually see the differences while monitoring on the TV. I zoomed in all the way onto the strings/frets/pearl-inlays of a guitar neck...it was all those horizontal/vertical lines that actually allowed me to see the difference in sharpness settings. In fact, as I write this, I think I will pull out a spool of thread and test with that as well. Anyway, my conclusion is that the Sharpness setting does make a difference.

Now...if anyone could give me an example of how to prove the Brightness setting under Cine Mode works, please tell me how.

[Nathan Shane]

Okay everyone, you asked for a photo showing the differences between the sharpness settings on the Canon HV20. It's actually a .BMP image at about 3.7MB, but when uploaded to Flickr, they turn it into a .JPG image...which actually hasn't lost any of the quality, so you are still able to see the sharpness differences.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1233/...4dff12e5_o.jpg

For those that would still like to see the original .BMP image, you can find that here:

http://vettaville.com/images/canon%2...%20capture.bmp