HV10 or HV20?

[John Cash]

Hello all, Im in need of a second HD camera I have narrowed it down to these two. I currently shoot with a sony HVR-V1U and I want to use the canon for a "deck" for playback. I have read other post and it looks like it can be done . I also will be using the canon in a water housing (epic) at surface level and I will be using a helmet camera. With the helmet camera I will have to build one of the infared cable remote systems to have a LANC

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94890

and I plan to carry this into the water at surface level. I use FCP to edit.
What are the differences Im looking at? Thanks

[Chris Hurd]

Not many differences besides shape/size/weight and audio input & HDMI on the HV20.

See http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/cano...rehv10hv20.php for some details.

[Dave Blackhurst]

John -

Suggest you research very carefully if a helmet cam is a primary use - check Spot's (Douglas Spotted Eagle) reviews of the OIS as well as the reviews of others. The OIS is better in the Sonys - the more I work with the HV20, the more noticeable that becomes vs. the HC7, and I'm not doing anything "extreme"...

I'd suggest you give the HC7 a look... has LANC, superior OIS, should also play back your V1 footage fine <wink>! Not to knock the HV20, it's a great camera, but the HC7 is worth looking at.

Oh yeah, the Sony water housing will fit either the HC7 or the HV20. Form factor of those two is very similar as opposed to the mini/upright HV10.

DB>)

[John Cash]

Thanks Dave, pardon the newbie question but what is OIS? I will check out the HC-7 I just hope it has an input for a remote lens.

Im trying to do it all here. I need a HD camera (consumer) that will play back the Mini dv tape from the V1U , it needs to be able to be used with a good waterhousing and I need to be able to plug the helmet camera lens into an av jack. I am sure I wont be able to crontrol it when in the helmet cam mode because I need a waterproof LANC. I liked the hv10 because I could jerry rig a remote using the ight sensor

So Im open to anything. Do you have a link to Douglas's post?

[Dave Blackhurst]

Hi John -

I don't have a link off hand, but suffice it to say that the G-forces when jumping out of a perfectly good airplane really play havoc with the Canon Optical Image Stabilizer (OIS). Others have reported odd OIS behavior, and I've seen it when zoomed in on my bracket stabilizing rig... just not as smooth as the Sony HC7.

The HC7 should play back Sony V1U fine, can't say for sure about the 24P mode though, but I would expect it to as DVCAM played back on my Sony consumer cams when I tested...

Look up the Sony SPK HCB and HCC housings - rated to 17 feet, have all the basic controls on the outside (via a LANC connection on the "D" plug on the camera). Some have had sucess putting the HV20 in these housings (it's not a big deal to do - I've got a used gutted housing that I plan to set up for the HV20 so all three of my cams are weatherproof just in case), and the remote in a watertight bag.

Scratching my head a bit at the design parameters - "A/V jack" is a curious addition if you're trying to keep the rig compact and weather/watertight - what would the A/V cable go to, and keep in mind you'd lose the HD resolution... and is the plan somehow to have the watertight housing on the helmet?? Hope you have a good chiropractor <wink>!

Not sure exactly your application where you need an underwater helmet cam? Does this involve G forces and impact with water at high speeds? How deep does this have to go? Maybe you could elaborate?

DB>)

[John Cash]

Im trying to do two things with one camera Dave. I want to use this camera for surfing and snowboarding. For surfing I want the housing ...and I also want to put the camera in a pelican waterproof case with waterproof connectors and use it in the water with a helmet cam. I follow my client as they surf with the helmet cam. I also want to be in the water as my client surfs at me ( waterhousing). The problem I am running into is most modern day cameras dont have an av input and a LANC connection. Now with the hc7 I know I can use the ilink to get the signal into the camera from the helmet cam lens...but I also need to be able to start/stop record in the water using a LANC waterproof controller. Im looking for any consumer model HD camera for this. I do realizie I wont have HD with a lens that puts out 580 lines of resolution.
If I call Sony or Canon neither can tell me if the LANC will work with the lens.

[Dave Blackhurst]

AHHH, OK, getting a clearer picture now - you need an A/V *INPUT* for the helmet cam. Since I'm guessing you'd not be able to get an HD helmet cam, perhaps this is better suited to a plain jane SD cam?

HC7 (and for that mater all the Sonys) have a LANC jack, and for the water housing there's the A/V jack ("D" shaped plug/jack), which has AUDIO in, so you get the mic input from the Sony housings, and it also carries the LANC signal on the HC3 and later, so you have:

power on/off
function (vid/still/playback)
still record
video record
and W/T (zoom)

All those functions are available while cam is in the housing, so you aren't taking it in and out except to change tapes or batteries, thus you've got about an hour of shoot time - since you're in salt water, you probably won't want to open that housing any more than needed... You'd have to turn the 20 on and leave it on - the 7 could be turned on and off while in the housing.

Perhaps the answer is to use the ilink (presuming the helmet cam will send video via firewire?), and mod a Sony housing so you can run a firewire cable through to the cam - the front "glass" bezel or the mic in are logical points of entry, as they both are already "holes" in the case, just a matter of perfecting a seal.

I've got an HCB I'm scrapping (damaged hinge/door lock) - I'll dissassemble it out of curiousity and see what might be done. Might have a mostly working one (W zoom is sticky IIRC) I'm selling if you want one to Frankenstein yourself. Got to check what I've got sitting around...

NOW an odd question... are you tethered to the helmet cam? Sounds tricky! how about a backpack arrangement for the housing so the client would be self contained - there's a tripod screw on it! Been thrashed a few times Boogie boarding (fun, but I wasn't very good at it), and wouldn't want that housing drifting around with me in a wave!

Staying upright and stable let alone graceful on ANYTHING is enough of a challenge for me without having a camera rig hung on me somehow (please don't ask me to walk, chew gum, AND shoot video...), but I'm pretty good at creative engineering (and I probably know the product better than the guys on the Sony phone lines...), so maybe I can help you figure this all out!

I think we've sort of drifted off from the HV10/20 thread - perhaps we should take it over to the HC1/3/5/7 area if you want to knock the ideas around using the Sony, but to bring it back to thread...

I'd presume that the HV10 and 20 both would take an ilink/firewire input as you have to be able to record back to the cam once you edit. For THAT, the HV10 is almost small enough to jerry rig a head mount of some sort, eliminating the helmet cam entirely (the 10 IS the helmet cam), but now you're looking at two cams... leave the camera running, cut out excess in edit. The OIS MIGHT handle that OK, since the client is a giant shock absorber, at least while upright... Challenge I see there is aiming - got to match the client perspective without creating a hazard/restriction of movement for the camera operator.

IF an HV 10 isn't much more than a helmet cam, I think that's worth knocking around - just have to rig a mount that is SAFE for camera and operator and watertight... hmmm, that watertight part could be troublesome... ANYONE out there rigged a waterproof housing for a 10?


DB>)

[John Cash]

A lot of good info from you Dave. I have also posted at the Sony HC7 threads. Only problem with this forum is there is no private message system. I would like to discuss this with you as you know the sony people. As far as Ilnk. I assume the HC7 is like MY HVR-V1U and my DVD 301 and that is the other end of the ilink has 3 RCA jacks correct? The camera would plug into the video jack and then the camera sees it just likean input from a VCR. However I dont know if this will work because the lens is just a standard SD 580 res lens

http://www.sportzshot.com/helmet-camera-pvs1.php

[Dave Blackhurst]

Hi John -
Sent you an e-mail. I think you've got iLink and A/V mixed up - iLink is Sony's term for firewire, the helmet cam looks like it uses the A/V in. I haven't tried using the A/V as an input, you might jump over to the Sony site and download a manual for the HC7 and see if it has that function, but I suspect the answer is no... Canon Manual is also available - and both manuals are probably "smarter" than customer service operators...

I'll have to look at them later - got a busy afternoon, but since I do dub from time to time, I'd like to know if that input works myself!

DB>)

[John Cash]

I will try it at home with the HVR-V1U and an old vcr. It would be the same set up.I will let you know hwo it goes.

[David Jasany]

John,

Here is a current thread also concerning the HC7 vs. the HV20:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=90722

Dave

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by John Cash

Only problem with this forum is there is no private message system. I would like to discuss this with you as you know the sony people.

I won't enable private messaging here because I don't believe in it. Private messaging is selfish. Why should you discuss a technical or creative issue *in private,* out of public view so that nobody else can learn from it? The whole point of this site is to provide a platform so that all of us can learn from each other, and that includes not just the person asking the question and the person answering it, but also all of the other people who are following the discussion, the people who might have some additional input that the first answerer didn't think of, and especially the people who will find this discussion later on who had the same question as the original poster.

That's the primary reason why I'll never enable PMs here -- the discussions need to be out in the open, for the benefit of *everybody* on the site. Let's please have some consideration for other people in this regard -- thanks in advance,

[John Cash]

I can understand that Chris, however when the discussion goes on and on and its the same topic between two posters, as a "newbie" I feel I may be waisting others time on one subject. Thats all

[Chris Hurd]

Trust me, John, you're not wasting anyone's time (and if that really was the case, we'd just close the thread and ask you to take it to email). Everyone is welcome here, from newbies to old hands...

[Dave Blackhurst]

Thanks Chris!

I did e-mail, but also encouraged posting over in the HC7 forum (where more good ideas and experience sprung forth!). Agreed that having ALL the collective thoughts "out in the open" helps, just hate to divert too far off thread! I know I appreciate the "whole enchilada", learn something new or try to help someone else do the same - must be that teaching gene that granddaddy passed along!

Glad to know the spirit of this forum is also to enrich us all!

DB>)