24p on HV20 choppy? at DVinfo.net

Jay Cowley · May 26th, 2007, 07:00 PM

I just purchased the HV20, mainly because I have heard so much about it's true 24p and film-like motion

I've been very impressed with the image quality so far on the hv20, but I've been playing around with the 24p and am not happy with the motion. It feels very choppy, with a 'rough' feel, almost like the video is being played in fast motion, but it doesn't feel natural.

This was playing it back through component on my HDTV. Is there a reason why the 24p is so choppy. I watched a few DVD's, and the films i saw (which are 24p aren't they?) were smooth, certainly not 60i smooth, but the film had a nice motion to it, it wasn't annoying to the eye, like the 24p i was seeing on my TV, from this HV20 camera.

Can someone sled some light on this, i've heard so many people rave about the 24p on this camera, surely i must be seeing something different, it just feels much to rough to be enjoyable.

Ajit Bikram · May 26th, 2007, 09:15 PM

Jay,
In many of the posts in this and other forums about 24P it has been mentioned that 24P does not handle motion very well. Leads to kind of jittery video.
I also have the same question as you that why the movies don't look that Jittery when there is motion involved.
So I took some 24P video of cars moving at about 50mph. I did shoot in Tv mode fixing the shutter speed. And what it seems from the LCD is that at 1/48 the motion looked lot smoother. Though I am yet to check them in computer. I plan to do it sometime tomorrow or day after. I would let you know how it went.
I am also going to remove pulldown to see if that effects the visual quality. Which I think might also play a role.

Mike Dulay · May 27th, 2007, 04:23 AM

http://yousillyman.blogspot.com/2007...rames-per.html
http://yousillyman.blogspot.com/2007...lling-man.html

24p is best for static shots and slow movement. TV 48 plus a custom effect allows you to have settings similar to cinemode but with a more hard set shutter (cine will go out of 48 in very low light). There are quite a few 24p samples in DVinfo. Look for the shots done by Solomon Chase, they are very good. In some cases you may want to shoot mixed tapes and then turn them both to 24p in final form.

The visually nice part of the 24p is the 'p'. Interlace "halves" your resolution because you only see every other row per field displayed. There are creative ways around this too (60i-60p (interpolated)-24p).

Now why is film 24p smoother than the ones we shoot? I'm still figuring that out myself. But from the years of home videos in 30p/24p I've found the key to be stabilization and limited panning. If you're moving its best to avoid pitch and yaw movement. How do you accomplish that? Be creative. In one of the links above, I used a moving walkway. In some cases I've used a DIY figrig which uses your arms to dampen some of the motion (you have to pay attention). In the past I would use a heavy tripod as a "fake" steadicam.

Blake Calhoun · May 27th, 2007, 10:22 AM

Are you shooting in auto? Your shutter probably dropped to 1/24th. As the other guys said, shoot at 1/48th shutter speed and 24p is fine.

Also, you might be having issues with the rolling shutter inherent in the CMOS chip of the camera. If you bounce around a lot or if your subject does it can cause issues. This is not however a 24p issue, it's a CMOS issue.

Of course it helps to know how to shoot 24p too. Seems a lot of folks in the "video world" that have never shot film do not know how to shoot good 24 frames per second footage.

There are tons of resources out there to learn the "rules". But the most important one is probably simply follow your "subject" as they move across the frame. And if there is no "subject" pan very slowly... :)

Jay Cowley · May 27th, 2007, 10:32 AM

thanks for the tips guys.

have you ever seen those TV shows, where they will go into a fast motion car chase, and then they use that effect, where the camera is more shaky and it has that fast motion feel. I remember seeing it on Alias, alot of the TV shows today use it for like flashback effect, its just a more 'rough' motion. That was what I was getting, instead of the regular, smoother 24p that you see on most TV shows during regular scenes.

Any other settings I can adjust to get the smoothest 24p possible?

Blake Calhoun · May 27th, 2007, 10:36 AM

If it's what I think you're talking about... you can get that effect by changing the shutter speed to 1/100th or higher. Kind of a "Saving Private Ryan" look. Although it won't be "smoother", just more kinetic feeling.

Jay Cowley · May 27th, 2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake Calhoun

If it's what I think you're talking about... you can get that effect by changing the shutter speed to 1/100th or higher. Kind of a "Saving Private Ryan" look. Although it won't be "smoother", just more kinetic feeling.

Well ya that look that you see during all the battle scenes in Saving Private Ryan, that's the type of motion I was getting whenever I adjusted this camera to 24p. It's a cool look, but I'm looking for something more easy on the eye, that regular 24p motion you see with most scenes shot on film.

Jay Cowley · May 27th, 2007, 12:00 PM

i was watching the 'rain' video by solomon chase, it did look very good. Why was his 24p so smooth and jitter-free?

Whenever I shoot 24p and watch it back, everything is juddering all over the place, and the image is never smooth unless the picture is completely still. I'm becoming very disapointed with the 24p on this camera, it doesn't seem to be even close to as smooth as 24p film, and it just annoying to look at, 60i wouldn't look professional, but at least it won't be hard on the eyes.

Blake Calhoun · May 27th, 2007, 12:59 PM

In Solomon's "rain" movie he shot with 1/100 shutter speed at 24p just as I described earlier. But he also slowed it down. Maybe that's what you're seeing and calling it smooth? But that is an effect.

Not really sure what you're doing, but the HV20's 24p looks great. I have shot with virtually every 24p camera there is including big rigs like the Varicam and Sony HDCAM and the HV20's 24p motion, etc. looks the same. It's NOT the same image quality, but the same 24p look and feel.

One thing too, 60i is professional, but it just doesn't look like film. Depends on what you're using the camera for...

Jay Cowley · May 27th, 2007, 04:02 PM

Ok i just went out and shot some more 24p footage. Pressed reset to clear camera to defaults, adjusted to hd24p mode, set shutter to 1/48.

Recording a bunch of stuff on a tripod, keeping the camera still, not moving very fast, trying different things. I hook up the component cable to my HDTV, watch the footage, its just not there. It doesn't look like the motion of film, it looks like it's film with some kind of a fast motion effect, or almost as if it was like 15fps or something, exactly what you'd see during a car chase on a TV show, CSI Miami, uses this kind of motion too. I'm sure it would look good on certain things, but not for any regular film your trying to make.

Is this what everyone is happy with, with the 24p. Or are are you all seeing a 24p motion that does have the smooth look that you see in any regular scene shot on 35mm film.

Ajit Bikram · May 27th, 2007, 04:12 PM

Jay,
I have been made pretty busy this weekend! So have not been able to see my footage yet in the computer/TV.
But what you did shoot seems to be same as mine. Did they look quite smooth in the LCD?
Did you try to download the footage in computer, remove pulldown to make it a proper 24P footage and then view it?

Jay Cowley · May 27th, 2007, 04:23 PM

i just watched it straight onto my tv, playing it off the tape

Ajit Bikram · May 27th, 2007, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Cowley

i just watched it straight onto my tv, playing it off the tape

Hmm. may I suggest you to download to computer, make true 24P and then make it smaller (so that the computer does not choke playing it) and then play.
Just to see if that creates any difference.
Thats what I would try to do tonight if I am left with some energy after going back home! :-/

Edit: By the way if you play the tape just in the cam how does it look in that tiny LCD? I am asking it because if they look smooth then I would expect the same result as you in the TV.

Jay Cowley · May 27th, 2007, 06:35 PM

it looked about the same on the tv as it originally did on the viewfinder.

here's something i found out just now doing a test. When I adjust the shutter to 1/24....I'm actually happy with the motion, it feels smooth and more like the motion i'm used to from film. The problem, of course is the motion blurring, which is much more obvious at 1/24 than at 1/48 or 1/60

As soon as I switch to 1/48 or anything higher, the motion blur gets better, but that motion becomes different, and it feels as if that fast motion effect is being used again. As of right now, I think I like the 1/24 shutter motion the best, but the motion blur is very obvious on fast movements of the camera.

Joel Endicott · May 27th, 2007, 10:16 PM

Jay, for what it's worth, when I record in 24p mode and play it back on my 48" HDTV via the component cables, the footage looks pretty smooth. I'm not sure what shutter speed I'm using, as so far I've mostly shot using the "cinema" mode.

The fact that you say it looks choppy right out of your camera has me worried that your camera might have a defect. You can see a lot of people have posted 24p footage that looks pretty good (at least in my opinion). I don't mean to make you panic; I was just surprised to read about your problem.

May 26th, 2007, 07:00 PM	#1
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	24p on HV20 choppy? I just purchased the HV20, mainly because I have heard so much about it's true 24p and film-like motion I've been very impressed with the image quality so far on the hv20, but I've been playing around with the 24p and am not happy with the motion. It feels very choppy, with a 'rough' feel, almost like the video is being played in fast motion, but it doesn't feel natural. This was playing it back through component on my HDTV. Is there a reason why the 24p is so choppy. I watched a few DVD's, and the films i saw (which are 24p aren't they?) were smooth, certainly not 60i smooth, but the film had a nice motion to it, it wasn't annoying to the eye, like the 24p i was seeing on my TV, from this HV20 camera. Can someone sled some light on this, i've heard so many people rave about the 24p on this camera, surely i must be seeing something different, it just feels much to rough to be enjoyable.

May 27th, 2007, 04:23 AM	#3
Mike Dulay Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Somerville, NJ Posts: 304	Tips http://yousillyman.blogspot.com/2007...rames-per.html http://yousillyman.blogspot.com/2007...lling-man.html 24p is best for static shots and slow movement. TV 48 plus a custom effect allows you to have settings similar to cinemode but with a more hard set shutter (cine will go out of 48 in very low light). There are quite a few 24p samples in DVinfo. Look for the shots done by Solomon Chase, they are very good. In some cases you may want to shoot mixed tapes and then turn them both to 24p in final form. The visually nice part of the 24p is the 'p'. Interlace "halves" your resolution because you only see every other row per field displayed. There are creative ways around this too (60i-60p (interpolated)-24p). Now why is film 24p smoother than the ones we shoot? I'm still figuring that out myself. But from the years of home videos in 30p/24p I've found the key to be stabilization and limited panning. If you're moving its best to avoid pitch and yaw movement. How do you accomplish that? Be creative. In one of the links above, I used a moving walkway. In some cases I've used a DIY figrig which uses your arms to dampen some of the motion (you have to pay attention). In the past I would use a heavy tripod as a "fake" steadicam. __________________ DIY, 35mm, HV20: http://www.primitivebuteffective.net

May 27th, 2007, 10:22 AM	#4
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	Are you shooting in auto? Your shutter probably dropped to 1/24th. As the other guys said, shoot at 1/48th shutter speed and 24p is fine. Also, you might be having issues with the rolling shutter inherent in the CMOS chip of the camera. If you bounce around a lot or if your subject does it can cause issues. This is not however a 24p issue, it's a CMOS issue. Of course it helps to know how to shoot 24p too. Seems a lot of folks in the "video world" that have never shot film do not know how to shoot good 24 frames per second footage. There are tons of resources out there to learn the "rules". But the most important one is probably simply follow your "subject" as they move across the frame. And if there is no "subject" pan very slowly... :) __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 27th, 2007, 10:36 AM	#6
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	If it's what I think you're talking about... you can get that effect by changing the shutter speed to 1/100th or higher. Kind of a "Saving Private Ryan" look. Although it won't be "smoother", just more kinetic feeling. __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 27th, 2007, 12:59 PM	#9
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	In Solomon's "rain" movie he shot with 1/100 shutter speed at 24p just as I described earlier. But he also slowed it down. Maybe that's what you're seeing and calling it smooth? But that is an effect. Not really sure what you're doing, but the HV20's 24p looks great. I have shot with virtually every 24p camera there is including big rigs like the Varicam and Sony HDCAM and the HV20's 24p motion, etc. looks the same. It's NOT the same image quality, but the same 24p look and feel. One thing too, 60i is professional, but it just doesn't look like film. Depends on what you're using the camera for... __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 26th, 2007, 09:15 PM	#2
Ajit Bikram Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 71	Jay, In many of the posts in this and other forums about 24P it has been mentioned that 24P does not handle motion very well. Leads to kind of jittery video. I also have the same question as you that why the movies don't look that Jittery when there is motion involved. So I took some 24P video of cars moving at about 50mph. I did shoot in Tv mode fixing the shutter speed. And what it seems from the LCD is that at 1/48 the motion looked lot smoother. Though I am yet to check them in computer. I plan to do it sometime tomorrow or day after. I would let you know how it went. I am also going to remove pulldown to see if that effects the visual quality. Which I think might also play a role.

May 27th, 2007, 10:32 AM	#5
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	thanks for the tips guys. have you ever seen those TV shows, where they will go into a fast motion car chase, and then they use that effect, where the camera is more shaky and it has that fast motion feel. I remember seeing it on Alias, alot of the TV shows today use it for like flashback effect, its just a more 'rough' motion. That was what I was getting, instead of the regular, smoother 24p that you see on most TV shows during regular scenes. Any other settings I can adjust to get the smoothest 24p possible?

May 27th, 2007, 12:00 PM	#8
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	i was watching the 'rain' video by solomon chase, it did look very good. Why was his 24p so smooth and jitter-free? Whenever I shoot 24p and watch it back, everything is juddering all over the place, and the image is never smooth unless the picture is completely still. I'm becoming very disapointed with the 24p on this camera, it doesn't seem to be even close to as smooth as 24p film, and it just annoying to look at, 60i wouldn't look professional, but at least it won't be hard on the eyes.

May 27th, 2007, 04:02 PM	#10
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	Ok i just went out and shot some more 24p footage. Pressed reset to clear camera to defaults, adjusted to hd24p mode, set shutter to 1/48. Recording a bunch of stuff on a tripod, keeping the camera still, not moving very fast, trying different things. I hook up the component cable to my HDTV, watch the footage, its just not there. It doesn't look like the motion of film, it looks like it's film with some kind of a fast motion effect, or almost as if it was like 15fps or something, exactly what you'd see during a car chase on a TV show, CSI Miami, uses this kind of motion too. I'm sure it would look good on certain things, but not for any regular film your trying to make. Is this what everyone is happy with, with the 24p. Or are are you all seeing a 24p motion that does have the smooth look that you see in any regular scene shot on 35mm film.

May 27th, 2007, 04:12 PM	#11
Ajit Bikram Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 71	Jay, I have been made pretty busy this weekend! So have not been able to see my footage yet in the computer/TV. But what you did shoot seems to be same as mine. Did they look quite smooth in the LCD? Did you try to download the footage in computer, remove pulldown to make it a proper 24P footage and then view it?

May 27th, 2007, 04:23 PM	#12
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	i just watched it straight onto my tv, playing it off the tape

May 27th, 2007, 06:35 PM	#14
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	it looked about the same on the tv as it originally did on the viewfinder. here's something i found out just now doing a test. When I adjust the shutter to 1/24....I'm actually happy with the motion, it feels smooth and more like the motion i'm used to from film. The problem, of course is the motion blurring, which is much more obvious at 1/24 than at 1/48 or 1/60 As soon as I switch to 1/48 or anything higher, the motion blur gets better, but that motion becomes different, and it feels as if that fast motion effect is being used again. As of right now, I think I like the 1/24 shutter motion the best, but the motion blur is very obvious on fast movements of the camera.

May 27th, 2007, 10:16 PM	#15
Joel Endicott Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: League City, TX Posts: 26	Jay, for what it's worth, when I record in 24p mode and play it back on my 48" HDTV via the component cables, the footage looks pretty smooth. I'm not sure what shutter speed I'm using, as so far I've mostly shot using the "cinema" mode. The fact that you say it looks choppy right out of your camera has me worried that your camera might have a defect. You can see a lot of people have posted 24p footage that looks pretty good (at least in my opinion). I don't mean to make you panic; I was just surprised to read about your problem.