24p on HV20 choppy?

Mike Dulay · May 28th, 2007, 06:08 PM

Jay, pulldown removal really helps with the annoying ghosting/blending.

Steve's thread on Vegas and 24p pulldown removal with free tools
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=94235&page=5

Here's a (not so) short brief on the process that Steve automates:
http://yousillyman.blogspot.com/2007...-hv20-m2t.html

Give it a try, you will like the output.

Ajit Bikram · May 28th, 2007, 09:17 PM

Jay,
I would just like to second Mike. If you download Steve's exe and all the other files as mentioned. pulldown issue wont look any complicated. And it would definitely not need any coding from your part. Even understanding it is not required!
And I would also mention that my footage at 1/48 does not look this jittery.

Paul Kepen · May 29th, 2007, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Dulay

Jay, pulldown removal really helps with the annoying ghosting/blending.

Steve's thread on Vegas and 24p pulldown removal with free tools
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=94235&page=5

Here's a (not so) short brief on the process that Steve automates:
http://yousillyman.blogspot.com/2007...-hv20-m2t.html

Give it a try, you will like the output.

So Mike, it looks rather complex. If you use Cineform with Vegas or PPro what do you have to do for pulldown removal to get the best quality? How about with a project that will have mixed 24p and 60i shots? Thanks - PK

Mike Dulay · May 29th, 2007, 03:35 AM

Paul, it appears complicated to do the first time setup because we're integrating multiple packages with at least 1 of them not allowing bundling. Once you have the parts together, you run Steve's exe and you tell it where all the m2t files are. Then you let it run. Look for the output when you're done and drop it into your timeline.

I've mixed 60i and 24p footage with no problem. If your NLE could already do it then its okay. Of course when your final output is progressive, it's best to deinterlace the 60i in your timeline ... that's an NLE function.

Jay Cowley · May 29th, 2007, 07:41 AM

thanks for your help guys, i appreciate it. I was finding then by doing the pulldown, I ended up with these huge AVI files.

I tried importing these into Vegas to edit, but i guess my computer was too slow, and got a choppy and wouldn't play. Can i convert these back to mpeg format, and then edit, and then render to mpeg again? Or is there going to be quality loss rendering from AVI to m2t, then editing then rendering to m2t again?

How do you guys usually do this, surely you don't edit directly using those AVI files, they are huge, i don't even have enough hardrive space for them

Ian G. Thompson · May 29th, 2007, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Cowley

thanks for your help guys, i appreciate it. I was finding then by doing the pulldown, I ended up with these huge AVI files.

I tried importing these into Vegas to edit, but i guess my computer was too slow, and got a choppy and wouldn't play. Can i convert these back to mpeg format, and then edit, and then render to mpeg again? Or is there going to be quality loss rendering from AVI to m2t, then editing then rendering to m2t again?

How do you guys usually do this, surely you don't edit directly using those AVI files, they are huge, i don't even have enough hardrive space for them

Actually Jay, that's what I did. I just started using Steve's method..but...instead of rendering several files to put in the timeline I saved my edited footage from the Vegas timeline into the MPEG 2MainConcept format (HDV) and THEN I ran that through Steve's .exe file. To my eyes it worked perfectly and when I blew up the footage...its quality seems identical to the original. (I have not even used the "Uncompressed" yet)...but it should look even better. But honestly the footage does not show any macroblocking or any other type of perceptable degradation.

I'm sure there are folks here who will not agree with my methodology but I am amazingly satisfied. Give it a try.

Mikko Lopponen · May 29th, 2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake Calhoun

If it's what I think you're talking about... you can get that effect by changing the shutter speed to 1/100th or higher. Kind of a "Saving Private Ryan" look. Although it won't be "smoother", just more kinetic feeling.

It will also enhance the rolling shutter effect pretty badly.

Ajit Bikram · May 29th, 2007, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Cowley

thanks for your help guys, i appreciate it. I was finding then by doing the pulldown, I ended up with these huge AVI files.

I tried importing these into Vegas to edit, but i guess my computer was too slow, and got a choppy and wouldn't play. Can i convert these back to mpeg format, and then edit, and then render to mpeg again? Or is there going to be quality loss rendering from AVI to m2t, then editing then rendering to m2t again?

How do you guys usually do this, surely you don't edit directly using those AVI files, they are huge, i don't even have enough hardrive space for them

Jay,
I am in fact using those huge avi files! I use Lagarith compression while saving them (not uncompressed).
And as I told you before. Just to see that pulldown removal is improving smoothness in your videos, you can open the avi files back in VirtualDub/DubMod and resize to a much smaller size before playing.
Smaller size would make it easy for your computer to play them.

Ajit B.

Paul Matwiy · May 29th, 2007, 05:24 PM

[QUOTE=Mike

Now why is film 24p smoother than the ones we shoot? I'm still figuring that out myself. [/QUOTE]

Motion judder is also visible in the film world. The one thing that smooths it out is that rapid movement will also cause a slight blur on the exposed frame, which masks the artifact. I suspect our video sensors have no equivalent of a motion blur visible in film.

Euisung Lee · May 30th, 2007, 01:23 AM

I saw shaky.wmv and to me it doesn't look like 1/48 shutter setting. I could be wrong but at a glance that's how it looks to me. Anyway I'll share what I felt about 24fps of hv20 so far.

I noticed the stroby feel of 24p /48shutter motion of HV20, but it seems particularly so on this small LCD. When I hook it up to a 24inch monitor via component output and watch the same movement it feels more like filmic smooth 24p footage. It doesn't look as stroby as camera's LCD flipout panel for some reason. (setting 24fps 1/48 shutter)

The other possible contributing aspect may be the depth of field and the weight of the camera. 35mm cameras as we all know have much shallower DOF. More often than not we see the clean target object against slightly blurred background, so even in motion it is less jitterly because half of the picture was already blurry. HV20 captures pretty much everything very sharp (assuming the focus has set right) so the motion judder pops stronger to your eyes.
And of course the weight. Unless you are using a tripod or a steadycam rig, HV20 in your hand records even a slight tremble of your hand and it can move around much freely compared to a typical film cameras in the same handheld situation. Optical stablization helps but in big HD res its effect doesn't seem as great as SD cams. So by default 24p footage out of a light HD cam should look more stroby, but it's a shortcoming that can be fixed.

Paul, great to see you here! Did you get hv20? Isn't it a fun camera? :)

Paul Matwiy · May 30th, 2007, 08:50 AM

Euisung,

I have both an HV20 and XH-A1. Not doing a lot of 24 P work yet, but evaluating a number of intermediate CODECs and editing systems. Waiting for a winner in the HD disc wars, I suppose. Had good success exporting 1280 x 720 H264 to an Apple TV, though. Both cameras are solid performers.

Drop me a line and let me know what you're up to. You working with Dan on I4?

Jay Cowley · June 2nd, 2007, 09:17 AM

I've been doing a bunch more shooting in 24p mode, always making sure that my shutter is set to 1/48 mode. I am seeming to likely it more and more, it's definitely alot better then the footage i had posted earlier in this thread, that footage seemed to have been shot with a much higher shutter somehow.

i again appeciate everyon's posts, starting to feel excited about owning this camera again.

Euisung Lee · June 4th, 2007, 01:37 AM

Jay,
I hope you like what you see from this little gem.

Paul,
I guess many people here would love to see a direct comparison between XH-A1 and HV20. At least I'd be interested to see how much HV20 can stand up to a prosumer cam.
I'm not on that show but on different one. When I get some time off I'd love to come up and catch up with you all.

James Klatt · June 7th, 2007, 10:24 AM

The judder and wobble that the HV20 produces when shooting 24P is awful. It happens when there is a slight shake, movement, or just handheld footage. This thread is getting to the bottom of it: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=98824

Future buyers BEWARE. I have this camera and when it is not on sticks or a steadicam device(in 24P), it has a good chance of exhibiting this wave of wobble.

The whole point of having a palm-camcorder is to use it accordingly...but this is when it is most vulnerable to this phenomenom.

I am lucky that the majority of my usage with this camera is as a B-camera that is on a tripod, because if I had to walk karound with it, then it would be unusable.

May 28th, 2007, 06:08 PM	#31
Mike Dulay Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Somerville, NJ Posts: 304	don't give up on pulldown removal Jay, pulldown removal really helps with the annoying ghosting/blending. Steve's thread on Vegas and 24p pulldown removal with free tools http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=94235&page=5 Here's a (not so) short brief on the process that Steve automates: http://yousillyman.blogspot.com/2007...-hv20-m2t.html Give it a try, you will like the output. __________________ DIY, 35mm, HV20: http://www.primitivebuteffective.net

May 29th, 2007, 03:35 AM	#34
Mike Dulay Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Somerville, NJ Posts: 304	It only appears to be Paul, it appears complicated to do the first time setup because we're integrating multiple packages with at least 1 of them not allowing bundling. Once you have the parts together, you run Steve's exe and you tell it where all the m2t files are. Then you let it run. Look for the output when you're done and drop it into your timeline. I've mixed 60i and 24p footage with no problem. If your NLE could already do it then its okay. Of course when your final output is progressive, it's best to deinterlace the 60i in your timeline ... that's an NLE function. __________________ DIY, 35mm, HV20: http://www.primitivebuteffective.net

May 29th, 2007, 05:24 PM	#39
Paul Matwiy Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Marin, CA Posts: 85	[QUOTE=Mike Now why is film 24p smoother than the ones we shoot? I'm still figuring that out myself. [/QUOTE] Motion judder is also visible in the film world. The one thing that smooths it out is that rapid movement will also cause a slight blur on the exposed frame, which masks the artifact. I suspect our video sensors have no equivalent of a motion blur visible in film. __________________ Paul

May 30th, 2007, 08:50 AM	#41
Paul Matwiy Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Marin, CA Posts: 85	Euisung, I have both an HV20 and XH-A1. Not doing a lot of 24 P work yet, but evaluating a number of intermediate CODECs and editing systems. Waiting for a winner in the HD disc wars, I suppose. Had good success exporting 1280 x 720 H264 to an Apple TV, though. Both cameras are solid performers. Drop me a line and let me know what you're up to. You working with Dan on I4? __________________ Paul

May 28th, 2007, 09:17 PM	#32
Ajit Bikram Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 71	Jay, I would just like to second Mike. If you download Steve's exe and all the other files as mentioned. pulldown issue wont look any complicated. And it would definitely not need any coding from your part. Even understanding it is not required! And I would also mention that my footage at 1/48 does not look this jittery.

May 29th, 2007, 07:41 AM	#35
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	thanks for your help guys, i appreciate it. I was finding then by doing the pulldown, I ended up with these huge AVI files. I tried importing these into Vegas to edit, but i guess my computer was too slow, and got a choppy and wouldn't play. Can i convert these back to mpeg format, and then edit, and then render to mpeg again? Or is there going to be quality loss rendering from AVI to m2t, then editing then rendering to m2t again? How do you guys usually do this, surely you don't edit directly using those AVI files, they are huge, i don't even have enough hardrive space for them

May 30th, 2007, 01:23 AM	#40
Euisung Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 57	I saw shaky.wmv and to me it doesn't look like 1/48 shutter setting. I could be wrong but at a glance that's how it looks to me. Anyway I'll share what I felt about 24fps of hv20 so far. I noticed the stroby feel of 24p /48shutter motion of HV20, but it seems particularly so on this small LCD. When I hook it up to a 24inch monitor via component output and watch the same movement it feels more like filmic smooth 24p footage. It doesn't look as stroby as camera's LCD flipout panel for some reason. (setting 24fps 1/48 shutter) The other possible contributing aspect may be the depth of field and the weight of the camera. 35mm cameras as we all know have much shallower DOF. More often than not we see the clean target object against slightly blurred background, so even in motion it is less jitterly because half of the picture was already blurry. HV20 captures pretty much everything very sharp (assuming the focus has set right) so the motion judder pops stronger to your eyes. And of course the weight. Unless you are using a tripod or a steadycam rig, HV20 in your hand records even a slight tremble of your hand and it can move around much freely compared to a typical film cameras in the same handheld situation. Optical stablization helps but in big HD res its effect doesn't seem as great as SD cams. So by default 24p footage out of a light HD cam should look more stroby, but it's a shortcoming that can be fixed. Paul, great to see you here! Did you get hv20? Isn't it a fun camera? :)

June 2nd, 2007, 09:17 AM	#42
Jay Cowley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Niagara, Ontario Posts: 141	I've been doing a bunch more shooting in 24p mode, always making sure that my shutter is set to 1/48 mode. I am seeming to likely it more and more, it's definitely alot better then the footage i had posted earlier in this thread, that footage seemed to have been shot with a much higher shutter somehow. i again appeciate everyon's posts, starting to feel excited about owning this camera again.

June 4th, 2007, 01:37 AM	#43
Euisung Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 57	Jay, I hope you like what you see from this little gem. Paul, I guess many people here would love to see a direct comparison between XH-A1 and HV20. At least I'd be interested to see how much HV20 can stand up to a prosumer cam. I'm not on that show but on different one. When I get some time off I'd love to come up and catch up with you all.

June 7th, 2007, 10:24 AM	#44
James Klatt Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Portland OR Posts: 132	The judder and wobble that the HV20 produces when shooting 24P is awful. It happens when there is a slight shake, movement, or just handheld footage. This thread is getting to the bottom of it: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=98824 Future buyers BEWARE. I have this camera and when it is not on sticks or a steadicam device(in 24P), it has a good chance of exhibiting this wave of wobble. The whole point of having a palm-camcorder is to use it accordingly...but this is when it is most vulnerable to this phenomenom. I am lucky that the majority of my usage with this camera is as a B-camera that is on a tripod, because if I had to walk karound with it, then it would be unusable.