An automated Vegas 24p workflow..

[Ian G. Thompson]

Originally Posted by Mike Dulay

Ian, you have a winner! I followed your method and used HV20pulldown.exe on the intermediate file (mainconcept mpeg2) and the effects applied were not affected by 3:2 pulldown removal. There were some artifacts on text I had on the front of the test project but I think that is more to do with the WMV9 codec because all the other text that followed were fine. The effects I applied were overlay text, one with blurred overlay text, and image rotation. I compared the 24p of the individual clips (also WMV9) versus the total project and had pulldown as post, there were no glaring differences.

I can see the advantage of this in total saved time:
1) No need to pre-render to true 24p
2) Editing m2t (though lossy) is still "faster" than fullsize lossless especially for slower systems
3) Space requirement: 12GB per tape + project mainconcept render + final render

Here's the result of the project:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/0vz70u <- 59MB (mainconcept mpeg2 was 908MB)

I used 'good' on this render, didn't see your comment to use 'best' until after ... but it's still good. I have to change the way I work with videos a bit with this new workflow. Pulldown removal should be done to create the 24p render ... that render can then be converted to a different codec/format/aspect afterwards.

This is great. I knew it would work. I have been doing it this way for almost two weeks now and was wondering if anyone else was doing the same. I'm glad it woked for you. My initial reason for doing this was because I was hoping there was another way of working without using these huge intermediate files and taking up lots of hard drive space.

I suspect if HV20pulldown.exe used flags to remove the pulldown then this method would not have worked because I believe the flag information would have been stripped from the "Vegas Rendered" file. But it is obvious that it utilizes a whole different method to remove pulldown and that is what I based my initial experimentation on. What I am even more amazed at is the quality of the final ouput.

[Mike Dulay]

Ian, yes if we had flags we'd probably be using forcefilm rather than TIVTC and it might not have worked. DGIndex (which is called by Steve's HV20Pulldown.exe) probably works by comparing frame to frame to determine whether its a mixed half-frame or the same progressive frame (only so many combinations of 3:2 / 2:3 you can be in).

For me, this is great for an all PF24 project as it saves on the pre-render time (it takes my fastest PC 1 night to re-render a full tape to WMV9). If I'm mixing 60i and PF24 sources, I suspect running IVTC in post will munge the 60i source. I'm hoping it won't ... if someone has mixed sources and some time I'd like to see how it turns out.

[Tim Haas]

Hey Ian, this workflow is incredibly efficient, but I have what may be a really stupid question- is there any inherent benefit to exporting the mainconcept mpeg at 60 mbits as opposed to the default 25?

[Ian G. Thompson]

Originally Posted by Tim Haas

Hey Ian, this workflow is incredibly efficient, but I have what may be a really stupid question- is there any inherent benefit to exporting the mainconcept mpeg at 60 mbits as opposed to the default 25?

Honestly Tim, I don't know. I would think so. Knowing that the HDV codec is already a lossy format I look at it like this:

If you take an orginal paper document and made a copy of it on a standard office copy machine the copy usually appears to be a little different (whether a little lighter or other artifacts introduced) but if you had a super high end copy machine (one that copies at about 3 times the normal resolution) then you are guaranteed more of an exact duplicate of the original.

So...in my analogy...HDV would be like the standard copier...but when you bump up it's capacity 3 times (in this case almost 2.5 times..25,000,000 to 60,000,000) then you have a better chance of keeping or duplication its original resolution.

Sorry for this corny analogy...but...that's where my mind is at.

Edit: I know there are probably others laughing at this but...blah blah blah.

[Steve Boutin]

Hi Steve:

I've searched the forums for an answer but no luck. I have the same problem that another poster had, but unfortunatley, updating the HV20pulldown.exe didn't solve my problem. The error I keep getting is:

Avisynth open failure:
Script error: Invalid arguments to funtion "Delay Audio"
(m:\working\cliptest.avs, line 2)

Even though files appear to have been produced to the work folder, the only file that will show up in Vegas is the Audio file. I installed, and placed everything to the letter per instructions, but no luck. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Steve Boutin

[Mike Dulay]

Steve,
Your problem sounds like a DGIndex problem. Make sure you are using DGIndex 1.49. Unclick the 'Remove DGIndex temporary files option.' Dump your m2t file in a directory that has no spaces or special characters. Make sure you are using the correct template.avs. Then give it a try. If it doesn't produce an mpa file we'll have to look at it again.

Contents of template.avs:
v=MPEG2Source("__vid__")
a=MPASource("__aud__")
audiodub(v,a)
TFM(d2v="__vid__")
tdecimate()
DelayAudio(-0.222)

[Steve Boutin]

OK, thanks, I'll try that.

Steve Boutin

[Steve Boutin]

Thanks, changing the template worked, but now I get the 'out of disc space 4gig file size FAT32 partition' error. Is there a work around for this? BTW, what I saw of the clip before I got the error looked GREAT!

Thanks,
Steve Boutin

[Mike Dulay]

Steve, FAT32 has a 4Gig limit to files. If you're working with uncompressed or lossless formats you should convert to NTFS (if you've got a special condition like Linux dual boot there are ways to r/w these fs nowadays, if you still don't like that one you can install ext2 filesystem drivers). If you don't mind the performance hit from long GOP, you could convert to a lossy format like WMV.

[Steve Boutin]

[QUOTE=Mike Dulay;707180]Steve, FAT32 has a 4Gig limit to files. If you're working with uncompressed or lossless formats you should convert to NTFS.QUOTE]

That's what I'm going to do. I Googled the procedure to convert to NTFS, and it looks pretty simple to do, and fairly safe. Would it be better to actually format an external drive, instead of converting my C: drive. Or is that even possible?

Thanks
steve Boutin

[Mike Dulay]

I've not had any problems with NTFS conversion of a boot drive before. As for using external drives, USB 2.0 is usually fast enough but I still prefer to use internal drives. In 24p conversion, you're more CPU bound than I/O. Converting the external is probably safest if you're not comfortable with messing with C:

[Steve Szudzik]

Thanks for picking up on those answers Mike. I haven't been on the boards for about a week now, went to go to NY for my grandmothers funeral.

Steve, I won't use FAT on any of my drives and haven't for years now. NTFS is certainly the way to go there. For external hard drives, I recently picked up a 500g WD myBook. Had some frustration with them about the firewire cable (mine was bad and getting a replacement was a real pain) but it works great, either USB 2.0 or Firewire. Like Mike, I do prefer the internal drives as well, but the externals are really cheap now and you can just unhook them and store them like you would your tape, until you need them again.

While in NY, I took about 4 hours of tape. I shot everything in 24p, mostly in cinema mode (a little in TV mode). This is the first time that I have shot everything in 24p and boy I'm hoping it comes out! I'll be spending the rest of the weekend here doing the conversions back and forth. Got some nice shots from the plane of downtown Chicago (not 24p though) as well as just outside of Vegas with the canyons. I might have to toss together a "From the Plane" video if I get the chance.

--Steve

[Mike Dulay]

Sorry to hear about your grandmother, Steve (S.). Glad you're back. Hope your 24p footage comes out clean. Ironically, now I'm experimenting with 60i -- its tricky switching from the "progressive" mindset.

Steve B., NTFS is quite robust especially for external drives. Knock on wood, I haven't lost a file from an accidental power off. USB 2.0 is fast enough. Technically, Firewire 400 has more available bandwidth but some people on the forums have reported issues with the HV20 hooked up on the same card concurrently.

[Steve Szudzik]

Thanks Mike, we had been expecting it but of course had been hoping that she might improve (she had alzheimers and was in a very rapid decline over the past month).

So far the clips are looking pretty good. This is the first "real" test of my own application aside from some test clips! Most of them have come out really good so far but some will need a little color correction here and there. Of course I left my tripod at home, so there's a bit of motion as well, until I remembered to turn on the image stabilizer! Got some nice clips of a retired destroyer (The Sullivans), a cruiser (Little Rock) and a WWII submarine (The Croaker). I was more surprised by some of the footage shot out of the airplane window during the trip though. Got a beautiful shot of downtown Chicago just before sunset as well as a nice pan down the strip in Vegas (looks like from the Wynn casino down to the Luxor). The plane was moving at a perfect pace along the strip so I didn't really have to do too much.

60i huh? Yeah, for some clips I still prefer it just because 24p hasn't yet come into my full comfort zone. For the kids little league, there's no way I was going to do 24p with all of the fast panning required. I figure it'll be a few more months before I can truly start appreciating what this camera can do!

--Steve

[Steve Boutin]

Thanks guy's for all the help. I bought PartitionMagic, and didn't have to do anything except click the mouse a couple of times, everything works great. I'm also using a MY BOOK USB drive, it's a real workhorse. My internal drive was already formatted to NTFS, I didn't even know it. Anyway, everything is good now. Thanks again, Steve B