An automated Vegas 24p workflow..

[Rick Barr]

Ajit, that worked great, thank you! The resulting AVI file has decent filesize and looks terrific. The only problem now is that when I try to open it in Vegas for editing, only the sound portion is available, the video never shows up. What's going on there?

Steve, I like the idea of being able to fix this in the script itself so I don't have to go back into VirtualDub and wait a second time for rendering. I'm just not sure which parts of it to edit. Here is my default script for Lagarith:

<Name>Lagarith Lossless</Name>
<Script>VirtualDub.RemoveInputStreams();
VirtualDub.stream[0].SetSource(0x73647561,0);
VirtualDub.stream[0].DeleteComments(1);
VirtualDub.stream[0].AdjustChapters(1);
VirtualDub.stream[0].SetMode(0);
VirtualDub.stream[0].SetInterleave(1,500,1,0,0);
VirtualDub.stream[0].SetClipMode(1,1);
VirtualDub.stream[0].SetConversion(0,0,0,0,0);
VirtualDub.stream[0].SetVolume();
VirtualDub.stream[0].SetCompression();
VirtualDub.stream[0].EnableFilterGraph(0);
VirtualDub.stream[0].filters.Clear();
VirtualDub.video.DeleteComments(1);
VirtualDub.video.AdjustChapters(1);
VirtualDub.video.SetDepth(24,24);
VirtualDub.video.SetMode(3);
VirtualDub.video.SetFrameRate(0,1);
VirtualDub.video.SetIVTC(0,0,-1,0);
VirtualDub.video.SetCompression(0x7367616c,0,10000,0);
VirtualDub.video.filters.Clear();</Script>

What would I need to do to set the resolution to 640x360 and using xVid, or any other compression?

[Ajit Bikram]

Originally Posted by Rick Barr

Ajit, that worked great, thank you! The resulting AVI file has decent filesize and looks terrific. The only problem now is that when I try to open it in Vegas for editing, only the sound portion is available, the video never shows up. What's going on there?

You are welcome Rick!
Well let me tell you that this resizing was just a test showing you that nothing went wrong with your footage or conversion. Its just that a little information missing from the big avi file (aspect ratio) that is creating all the problem.

And NO you don't have to create that particular size (640x360). That size was a very small one that still maintained the 16:9 ratio (so was very easy on your computer not choking it to show the choppy video).

now to edit in vegas, I would ask you to do the following steps--

1) Take the original avi file in vegas.
2) set the properties of the project (File->properties) to 1080HD-24p ( I dont remember the exact name; can tell you later when I get back home)
3) drop your avi files into the timeline
4) righ click over the clip on the timeline and get into properties
5) define pixel aspect ratio as 1.333 (HDV).
6) Output from vegas as you wish, and try to play that. (It would have correct aspect ratio but might be still choppy due to the file size).


On a general note, I would like to tell all these are problems of HD. the HDV format (*.m2t files) have the same bit rate as DV and thus can be edited (and played) without problem.
But as soon as you convert them to some other format (like avi) they become too big (thats what we need to do while removing pulldown) and handling them smoothly needs a hell lot of computer power.


@Steve, Sorry for my previous post which sounded as if your exe is messing up the aspect ratio. What I wanted to mean is that the hv20 pulldown process messed it up not your hv20pulldown.exe!!

[Rick Barr]

Ajit,

I'm going to save this info, but I think I am going to need to upgrade. I just don't have those exact options in Vegas 4.0 (this is seeming to be more of a problem as we go along). In my project properties, I have:

width
height
field order
pixel aspect ratio
frame rate

There are a bunch of templates available, but none for HDV. Should I just set my height and width to widescreen equivalents until I can figure out how to upgrade?

[Ajit Bikram]

Originally Posted by Rick Barr

Ajit,

I'm going to save this info, but I think I am going to need to upgrade. I just don't have those exact options in Vegas 4.0 (this is seeming to be more of a problem as we go along). In my project properties, I have:

width
height
field order
pixel aspect ratio
frame rate

There are a bunch of templates available, but none for HDV. Should I just set my height and width to widescreen equivalents until I can figure out how to upgrade?

Rick, I see if you dont have any HD or HDV templates probably you would need an upgrade.
Anyway in the "project properties" (File -> Project properties) you can set
width -- 1440
height -- 1080
field order -- none (progressive)
pixel aspect ratio - 1.333
frame rate - 23.976


Edit:- The above setup would be the template HDV 24P; and in case you set width 1920 and pixel aspect ratio 1.0 it would be HD 1080 24P

and if you go to clip properties (by right-clicking on any 24p clip) and then the media tab (hope they are there)
you can set

All the above parameters exactly the same and hit "apply" to get perfect video!

If none of this options are there than you would need an upgrade soon!

good luck!

[Mike Dulay]

Originally Posted by Rick Barr

Ajit, that worked great, thank you! The resulting AVI file has decent filesize and looks terrific. The only problem now is that when I try to open it in Vegas for editing, only the sound portion is available, the video never shows up. What's going on there?

Vegas does not like the XVID fourcc and is misdetecting which codec to use. You can fix that by changing the fourcc to DIVX when you encode. Go to Virtual Dub -> Video -> Compression -> Options -> Advanced options. You should find an option fourcc (4cc). If you've already encoded, you can change it with the Nic's fourcc changer which should have come with your XviD install. Xvid is still doing the encoding not Divx, it's just masquarading itself.

[Rastus Washington]

Steve:

I'm using your HV20Pulldown.exe program.

Looking at the Script Editor it appears that the line:
VirtualDub.video.SetCompression(0x75796668,0,10000,0);
is the one responsible for the codec that's used for compression.

How do you figure out the codec information that's in the parentheses?
i.e. Lagarith (0x7367616c,0,10000,0) Huffyuv (0x75796668,0,10000,0)

Does VirtualDub have the ability to render out files based on quicktime codecs? Specifically the Avid DNxHD codec http://www.avid.com/dnxhd/index.asp.

Thanks,
Rastus

[Mike Dulay]

Rastus,
Capture the avs/d2v/mpa files generated by the exe and then feed the AVS directly to Virtualdubmod. Set the compression to the QT codec with all the settings you want. Then go to File -> Save processing profile. This generates a VCF file. Open it up. You can copy and paste this to a custom profile in HV20Pulldown.exe so you can use whatever codec you want.

[Rastus Washington]

Mike:

Thanks for your reply.

The Avid DNxHD codec does not show up in the VirtualDub compression dialog box.

Does VirtualDub does have the ability to render out files based on quicktime codecs? I'm not sure it does, but I have little to no experience w/ VirtualDub.

You wrote, "Set the compression to the QT codec with all the settings you want." I assume you mean VirtualDub -> Video -> Compression as you mentioned in post #25? Is that correct or is their another place to do this?

Thanks,
Rastus

[Rick Barr]

Originally Posted by Ajit Bikram

Rick, I see if you dont have any HD or HDV templates probably you would need an upgrade.
Anyway in the "project properties" (File -> Project properties) you can set
width -- 1440
height -- 1080
field order -- none (progressive)
pixel aspect ratio - 1.333
frame rate - 23.976


Edit:- The above setup would be the template HDV 24P; and in case you set width 1920 and pixel aspect ratio 1.0 it would be HD 1080 24P

and if you go to clip properties (by right-clicking on any 24p clip) and then the media tab (hope they are there)
you can set

All the above parameters exactly the same and hit "apply" to get perfect video!

If none of this options are there than you would need an upgrade soon!

good luck!

Thanks Ajit, and Mike. I don't have those options. Sadly, I think my version of Vegas is simply too old, and in light of that, I am going to lay off a bit on trying to perfect my process (I'm keeping this thread handy, however, you have provided a ton of valuable information). Frankly, the video that I am taking and editing looks great to me, with the exception of some slight detail loss after I render in Vegas.

What exactly does removing the 24P Pulldown do to videos?

[Steve Szudzik]

Rick, the pulldown removal process basically strips the interlaced frames out of the 24p footage and leaves only the progressive frames behind. This gives you a pure progressive clip. You can leave the interlaced frames in there and do some blending etc, but often what you will see will be some "ghosting" in the final output file. Depending on the clips it may or may not be noticeable.

--Steve

[Mike Dulay]

Originally Posted by Rastus Washington

Mike:

Thanks for your reply.

The Avid DNxHD codec does not show up in the VirtualDub compression dialog box.

Does VirtualDub does have the ability to render out files based on quicktime codecs? I'm not sure it does, but I have little to no experience w/ VirtualDub.

You wrote, "Set the compression to the QT codec with all the settings you want." I assume you mean VirtualDub -> Video -> Compression as you mentioned in post #25? Is that correct or is their another place to do this?

Thanks,
Rastus

Rastus, Now that you mention it. The QT codecs don't show up in Virtualdubmod. I must have seen them in Vegas. Sorry my mistake. Vdub needs a vfw compatible codec and it appears the QT ones are not. Which is a shame. I'm not familiar with Avid DxHxD ... is that better than H.264 and Sorenson3?

Originally Posted by Rick Barr

Thanks Ajit, and Mike. I don't have those options. Sadly, I think my version of Vegas is simply too old, and in light of that, I am going to lay off a bit on trying to perfect my process (I'm keeping this thread handy, however, you have provided a ton of valuable information). Frankly, the video that I am taking and editing looks great to me, with the exception of some slight detail loss after I render in Vegas.

What exactly does removing the 24P Pulldown do to videos?

Rick, are you on Vegas 6 or much lower? The resolution loss is probably due to your codec choice. Funny thing, I knew someone with Vegas 6 which is where I learned to use the product and I thought that was more flexible than the new 7 in terms of encoding. As long as your videos look good then you should be happy.

24p pulldown removes the ghosting/blurring that you get with the interlaced wrapper. Vegas is usually smart enough when you tell it to blend/interpolate to give you decent video. Same case with Movie Maker when encoding WMV9. On occasion you'll see a glitch. Some people don't notice the glitch until they've compared footage with and without pulldown running in front of them. Sometimes your display might be kind enough to mask it from you. I watch most of my footage on a PC and add effects so the ghosting/blurring/combing is more apparent to me with my unsteady footage.

[Ian G. Thompson]

Originally Posted by Steve Szudzik

Rick, the pulldown removal process basically strips the interlaced frames out of the 24p footage and leaves only the progressive frames behind. This gives you a pure progressive clip. You can leave the interlaced frames in there and do some blending etc, but often what you will see will be some "ghosting" in the final output file. Depending on the clips it may or may not be noticeable.

--Steve

Steve, I pretty much understand what you are saying about how the pulldowne.ex file removes the interlced frames. I have mentioned my workflow in another post before but I was told that I was doing it the wrong way. Before the existence of your software I was using MPEGStreamClip. What i di was...

...Capture my files with HDVSplit (which seperated all of the clips perfectly).
...Brought my clps ito the Vegas timeline and edited away
...Rendered the file to MainConcept MPEG2 (M2T), but instead of the 25,000,000 bit HDV rate I did it at 60,000,000 bits 29.97 upper frame first
...I ran that .m2t file through MPEG StreamClip (knowing that MPEG StreamClip supported pulldown) and it came out perfect.

Someone in this forum explained to me that because I had to click on the deinterlace button within MPEGStreamClip that I was not really looking at "true" progressive frames (I understand the reasoning behind that but that program "does" support pulldown removal and it seems clicking deinerlace was the only way to do that). Because of what he said i gave up on that method....but.....then came your HV20Pulldown.exe. So..what i did was try out that same method again but this time i used your program instead of MPEGStreamClip. My reasoning for doing this was because if it worked then there would be no excuse of deinterlacing. Guess what? It worked. Every time. All ghostig/blending was gone and the video was progressive all the way through. And this was only usig your program at the very last step.

It looked so good that I decided to do some tests. I used your program on a RAW m2T file and rendered it out as file "A." I took the same RAW m2T footage and placed it on a Vegas timeline ...rendered it out to another M2T file and then ran that file through your software as footage "B." To my suprise both footage were identical....a perfect match...not only in size...but I blew both of them up 400% and they matched pefectly even down to the grain of the picture. I opened them both up at the same time in two instances of VDUB and walked through the entire 4 minutes of footage, FRAME BY FRAME and they were perfectly matched. NO DEGRADATION AT ALL. Both files were the same size and frame length.

At this point I am saying to myself...how does the software do its pulldown removal? It must somehow intelligently find the interlaced footage and automatically remove them. There is clearly no deinterlacing done with this software so that ruled that out. I posted my findings in the forum but the only logical response i got was that it worked because I only used one footage and there was no cuts, transitions or any kind of editing in the footage on the timeline. I said fair enough and I went back and repeated the whole process...but this time while on the Vegas timeline I added other footage...did cuts...fades..and all kinds of editing. Guess what...the results were exactly the sme...pulldown was removed from the Vegas rendered file and there was absolutely no degredation of the file compared to the RAW footage.

So I ask myself? Why am I even bothering to go to an intermediate codec when I am able to render a whole edited footage with the same exact result. At this point it does not seem to make any sense.

I challenge anyone on this forum to give this a try. You will be hard pressed to find any difference in the Processed and Unprocessed M2T files (so to speak). What I have been doing is using the HV20Pulldown.exe as the very last step giving me only one large file and then using that file to make smaller more internet friendly copies which still looks magnificent. this would save people a ton of hard drive space. Tell me, is there somethng that i am missing here?

I sincerily apologize for the long post.

Ian

[Mike Dulay]

Ian, you have a point with your workflow. Since you're doing all your editing in interlace you can do pulldown removal at the end. I'll have to confirm if I don't get any artifacts from cadence that doesn't quite join evenly. I used to have that problem when I was using the MPEG Streamclip from the front-end.

As for MPEG Streamclip, I did read that 1.8 had full support for 23.976 3:2 pulldown removal. If it came in at the end of your process, I can see where it wouldn't be much trouble to drag one large mpeg-2 to process rather than a bunch of clips.

Could you confirm if these are your default project settings: HDV 1080-60i, 29.970 Upper field first, 1.3333 Aspect, Rendering: Good, Motion blur: Gaussian, Deinterlace: None

[Ian G. Thompson]

Originally Posted by Mike Dulay

Could you confirm if these are your default project settings: HDV 1080-60i, 29.970 Upper field first, 1.3333 Aspect, Rendering: Good, Motion blur: Gaussian, Deinterlace: None

Mike....that's exacly the same settings I used. This is cool. I'm glad someone else is finally giving this a try. I really need to confirm this.

edit: Correction..instead of Good it should be Best.

[Mike Dulay]

Ian, you have a winner! I followed your method and used HV20pulldown.exe on the intermediate file (mainconcept mpeg2) and the effects applied were not affected by 3:2 pulldown removal. There were some artifacts on text I had on the front of the test project but I think that is more to do with the WMV9 codec because all the other text that followed were fine. The effects I applied were overlay text, one with blurred overlay text, and image rotation. I compared the 24p of the individual clips (also WMV9) versus the total project and had pulldown as post, there were no glaring differences.

I can see the advantage of this in total saved time:
1) No need to pre-render to true 24p
2) Editing m2t (though lossy) is still "faster" than fullsize lossless especially for slower systems
3) Space requirement: 12GB per tape + project mainconcept render + final render

Here's the result of the project:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/0vz70u <- 59MB (mainconcept mpeg2 was 908MB)

I used 'good' on this render, didn't see your comment to use 'best' until after ... but it's still good. I have to change the way I work with videos a bit with this new workflow. Pulldown removal should be done to create the 24p render ... that render can then be converted to a different codec/format/aspect afterwards.