24p HDV and Premiere Pro

[Mario Jesmanowicz]

I am new guy here, and I am interested in buying hv20 (quality looks great) but I have two maybe stupid questions about editing

1) I thought HDV standards were hdv-1 at 19mbs at 1280x720 30p and hdv-2 at 25mbs at 1440x1080 29.997i with 1.333 pixel ratio, so how can a camera that does 1920x1080 at 29.997 or at 24p can be in these two standards. I hear people use 1440x1080 but doesn't this lose quality?

2) and if there is a way to really get this 1080i editing and people are woring about 24p and 2:3 pull down. Can't one capture at 1080i 60 (which 24p is encoded in there anyway) and EDIT in it too and then just find a way to export into 1920x1080 24p. It seems everyone is trying to get that 24p before editing. Capture first, then do telecine and then edit. Is there a problem editing first the basic 1080i at 29.997 and then worrying about only output at 1920x1080 24p? and Is there maybe something like mainconcpet that can export the final work into 192x1080 24 with pull down?

[Chris Barcellos]

Mario:

HV20 shoots both 1080 60i, and 1080 24p. The 24p is basically wrapped in the 1080i wrapper. When you process, I understand you need to do pull down to get true 24p. However, neither Premiere nor Vegas actually do that yet for HDV, so people who really want it, go through an involved process with outside programs to remove the pulldown.

I am told that if you want true to life 24p, it is better to shoot in that setting, rather than try to convert after.

However, the effect everyone wants from 24p still shows up in the video, even without pulldown removal, so I am learning about 24p idiosyncracies while awaiting the pull down features.

True HD is 1920 x 1080 pixel ration. 1440 x 1080 is the HDV equivalent, if I understand it right, that uses the widened pixel aspect ration to stretch to the 1920 x 1080 size.

[Mario Jesmanowicz]

yes, that is exactly what 1440x1080 is the pixel ratio is 1 to 1.333 where in 1920x1080 it is 1:1, the point here is that there is MORE info in 1920 than in 1440 but since the camera does HDV then isn't it downgraded from 1920 to 1440? So what is the advantage of the camer that can do 1920 and the one that does only 1440? Obviously when you play it directly to TV through HDMI then you get 1920 (especialy on true 1920x1080 tv) but when you start to edit don't you lose it?

and again editing in wrapped 24p in 1080 60 what is the difference in editing if you don't do telecine pulldown before (which seems hard and a lot of steps)
does it effect editing? if NOT then why not do pull down to tru 24p after the editing project is done and you are ready to export for BR or HD-DVD or in my case my Ehternet HD Divx player

[Mike Dulay]

Yes, lots of idiosyncrasies. First is HD (1920x1080) vs HDV (1440x1080). The HV20 has to downscale its 1920x1080 sensor image into 1440x1080 which is then later rescaled to 1920x1080 for component out/HDMI. On firewire it is 1440x1080 when extracted from the tape to m2t. Go figure. Its still makes a nice enough picture.

As for inverse telecine ... It's not just Premiere but most NLEs out there..transcoded 24p file or the raw 24p in 60i you still get the 24 fps sampling when you record PF24. I'm also wondering about the advantage of doing the pulldown pre-editing vs post-editing. It seems a lot of trouble for a non-professional to decode, mix, and then re-encode. So I tried just throwing in a DV avi @ 60i with M2T @ 24PF-60i in a 1440x1080 23.976 timeline. The NLE (in this case Vegas) blended everything and something came out. It wasn't terrible (well the base footage wasn't that good to start with).

If you have the time, you could download one of the M2T files posted in this forum and give it a whirl.

[Daniel Moreno]

The reason to remove pulldown before editing is becaused the original 24p footage has a cadence that alternates 3 progresive frames and 2 interlaced frames (and goes on like that). Some software like cineform hd and after effects knows how to remove this pulldown and convert this 5 frames into 4 progressive frames.
If you edit 24p footage in a 60i timeline you are very very likely to mess up the cadence when you mix several takes (ie: you might end up having 6 consecutive progresive frames or 4 consecutive interlaced frames, all of this depending on one what frame of the cadence one take ends and the other take starts). Once the cadence is lost, the pulldown removal is almost imposible.
Therefore, if you really need to output to true 24p, remove pulldown first and edit in a 24p timeline. If you want the 24p look but your final output is gonna be 60i, don't worry about pulldown at all (neither before nor after editing) and edit in a 60i timeline.

[Mario Jesmanowicz]

Thank you guys for the help and Daniel that means that if I want this (a bit better quality) and and PQ that is better at low light that this recording in 24P on HV20 allows and everyone says is so good, as long as I don't have any reasons to have output at 24p. I can edit and work with it and TAKE advantage of this better quality but still just work with 1080i60? correct?

[Tim Homola]

I have PP2.0 and am using Aspect HD. I have just started playing with it but hopefully I will have some samples soon. I am trying different capture/exporting methods to see what works best.

[Mario Jesmanowicz]

That is great. I am familiar with Cineform and Ppro 2.0 I would be very interested to see how that works out. I hear that Cineform is capable of doing pull down 2:3 on its own and allows editing in 24p. Is that true? for $1500 (Camera and Cineform) that would be worth it

[Johann Schlossberg]

If I capture movie through firewire with any soft, the file that results is 1440x1080. The HV10 camera, I know that it records in 1080i HD format, that is 1920x1080.

Where do I do something wrong?

[David Newman]

Originally Posted by Mario Jesmanowicz

That is great. I am familiar with Cineform and Ppro 2.0 I would be very interested to see how that works out. I hear that Cineform is capable of doing pull down 2:3 on its own and allows editing in 24p. Is that true? for $1500 (Camera and Cineform) that would be worth it

That is all true. Give the 15-day trial of Aspect HD a go from www.cineform.com.

[David Garvin]

Originally Posted by Mike Dulay

The HV20 has to downscale its 1920x1080 sensor image into 1440x1080 which is then later rescaled to 1920x1080 for component out/HDMI.

Has that actually been confirmed or are we all still guessing that it might fro from 1920->1440->1920->HDMI?

[Scott Turkington]

Originally Posted by Tim Homola

I have PP2.0 and am using Aspect HD. I have just started playing with it but hopefully I will have some samples soon. I am trying different capture/exporting methods to see what works best.

I just got the Canon HV20 and have PP2.0 and am curious if you've captured straight from the canon HV20 using Aspect HD to aquire a true 24p video? I've shot some video in 24P and want to see what it looks like to convert the video to 24p and the easiest method I've come across sounds like using Aspect HD but I have yet to read a post from anyone that's done this and heard how easy/difficult it is? Any info on your findings would be great :) ???

Scott

[David Newman]

Scott,

It works perfectly. Canon loaned us an HV20 to verify all this.