"Funny jerking movements"

[John Millar]

hi there

got my hv20 couple of days ago been getting used to menus here is what i noticed and was interested if anybody else has this problem(if that what it is)
i took footage in the park and there was a lot of walking with my tripod camera connected and was walking as if it was glidecam well nothing like it
but i am concerned cause the walking shots look like the camera is making jerking movements as if the OIS is trying to compensate for the movement
but the ois is not on so i put it on and no difference only on handheld shots
the camera is fine on the tripod but these jerking movements are not natural
i know you can get shaky cam work but this is different.

[Jason Brown]

could you post some video of this occuring?

thanks

[Wes Vasher]

I turn off all stabilizations when doing walking shots generally. The OIS helps for doing hand held standing still though.

[Ron Lemming]

I have the same problem. The image looks like a wobbling jelly when I walk with the camera at full wide-angle, both handheld and on a home built stabilizer. OIS ON or OFF doesn't seem to make any difference. Shooting interlaced instead of progressive doesn't help. I have never seen anything quite like it before. Even my old Sony with EIS does a far better job even with EIS OFF, so I don't think the HV20 should behave this way.
Personally I can not get any useful footage with this unnaturally jerky image so I will return my camera and have a new one sent to me.

[Ian G. Thompson]

I've been reading in other forums and it seems that other PAL users are having this problem. I saw some of their footage and it is pretty bad. For your sake I'm hoping that it is just a defective camera.

[Wes Vasher]

Wobbling image could be the rolling shutter effect.

[Peter J Alessandria]

I have an NTSC version of the camera and I have similar issues.

For me I've chalked it up to three factors that are NOT IMO defects (at least defects that can be fixed) of the camera: 1) small, lightweight cameras are inherently more difficult to hold steady. I'm coming off a DVX100. With all my stuff on it, that camera was around 5 lbs with that mass spread around a much larger camera. The HV20 is tiny in comparison. It weighs close to what my extended life battery weighs on the DVX - just the battery! 2) HD(V) resolution - most of us are used to standard DV resolution. The HV20's resolution is 2 1/2 times greater. Thus small camera movements appear greatly amplified. While a camera shaking 1/8" in either direction is still 1/8 for DV or HDV, to me at least it looks much more pronounced in my HDV footage. 3) CMOS sensor - I'm not an engineer and others are probably much more knowledgeable than I on this, but my understanding is fast camera movement on a CMOS sensor shows up as kind of diagonal sheering of the image. To me at least this makes camera movement much more noticeable (subject movement, on the other hand, appears the same to me on the HV20 as any other camera). But I can get literally seasick watching some of my HV20 handheld stuff where I moved the camera in a jerky fashion to begin with.

Canon's OIS works quite well IMO. But any lens stabilizing system has it's limits. (BTW - I leave it turned on even while on a tripod to "absorb" any bumps - may turn it off for lots of panning as supposedly it has a negative effect on pans though I have yet to see it.) But based on 1)-3) above, I've come to the overall conclusion that I can't do a lot of handheld shooting with the HV20 esp at the long end of the zoom. I recently got Canon's wide angle adapter - WD-H43 or whatever it's called - hoping that 1) shooting wider would make my shakey camera moves less noticeable and 2) the added weight of the adapter would make the camera more stable. But no go. On 2) all the adapter does is make the camera noticebly front heavy. All that weight on the front acts as a lever (remember high school physics?), amplifying the stability issues of the camera (for me at least).

So... I've resigned myself to shooting a lot more with a tripod with this camera and looking for some other means to stabilize the camera when shooting handheld. But I think shooting while walking is definitely out for me with this camera!

[Ron Lemming]

I tried downscaling my footage to SD but it was still jerky. I've never seen this kind of jerkyness with my old Sony dv camera that is even lighter than the HV20. I have no problems getting satisfying handheld footage from this old Sony. I never experienced anything like this with my DVX100 either.

If I am restricted to tripod shots I don't think I can work with this camera. I tried a stabilizer but it didn't make any difference, the unnatural jerkyness was still there. I really wanted to shoot some fluid motion shots with this amazing little camera but it seems impossible. I keep telling myself that my camera is broken and that the HV20 is not supposed to behave like this. If that is not the case however, I really hope that Canon can fix this issue or I will go back to my Sony.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Hi All -

Peter, your observations are very good - small low mass, more picture information and the engineering of the CMOS sensor all are contributors to the challenge when shooting HDV - there is a learning curve, and the format is not forgiving of "bad" camera technique. "Uncle BobCam" footage will look FAR worse in HD...

THAT said...

Here's my approach to stabilizing a small camcorder (yeah, I know it's a Sony HC7, but my HV20 isn't here yet... really... I swear you guys convinced me... it's on it's way... but I'm keeping the Sony TOO, OK?).

I've tried about every "affordable" commercial stabilizer out there, still have a couple hanging about as they can be useful, BUT for most average use, this bracket rig works pretty well - sort of a "mini Fig Rig" approach. It's a flat bracket and two folding ones that screw into the flat one (trick is to find a flat bracket with threading on the far end of tripod screw slot as well as the regular tripod hole). This whole thing is pretty compact (non folding brackets are fine, just less compact!) and takes a couple seconds to whip out and screw onto the camera. You can adjust the handles in or out to taste. Takes zero seconds to balance... just grab the handles aim and shoot! If you can drive, you should be able to master this in short order.

Typically I add a LANC controller (that won't work with the HV20... no big deal... just move the right bracket in a bit so I can reach the joystick!), and as a bonus I've got regular full size cold shoes to attach mic, lights, etc... accessories really DO make the outfit!

The brackets lower the Center of gravity of the camera, and move the hands out a bit so you have better control - even with a heavy WA on front, it's manageable - you have a LOT more control with this rig - you can pan, tilt, crane, etc. with ease! With a little practice of the steadicam glide/walk you can get decent results, haven't ventured stairs or running yet, but should be possible. I even turned the rig around and fiddled with that eerie "shooting yourself" trick the other day!

I've used a single ergo handle bracket with a Z1 for the same reason, and the extra hand makes a BIG difference in controlling the camera.

I know that I've spent a ton of time figuring out this setup, and I've seen a few others using a similar rig, so I'm passing it along - it works surprisingly well, and shouldn't cost more than $50 to collect the brackets, less if you use non-folding ones!

This isn't exactly a $15 "poor man's steady cam" but then again it doesn't look like you had an acident with a plumbing truck on the way to your shoot - if you tack on enough "accessories" the small camera even takes on a pretty convincing "professional" aura!

DB>)

PS - I'll let the thread know if this works well with the HV20 sometime next week - really hoping that the cam OIS is at least as good as the HC7, which rocks in that department!

[Steve Royer]

Dave this really looks great and I'd like to see an HV20 on it. The price really speaks to me as well, I don't need to impress anyone I just need good footage. I had some questions:

1) How difficult is it to fiddle with camera controls with one hand, while balancing only one side of the rig with the other? (For example if you were walking and adjusting settings, you'd need to support the cam with your left arm on the "fig rig" handle and adust the camera joystick with your right arm) It seems the one-handed steadicams center your arms and attention in the middle, but I'm afraid this might spread your reach too far.

2) Where did you locate these brackets, some place like a Home Depot or average Hardware shop?

3) Does the manual on the HV20 list the tripod mount's screw size? How did you go about securing the camera to a bracket?

4) This seems ideal with a smaller LCD screen on the shoe above the camera, have you seen anyone with this type of rig attempt it? Have you?

THanks for sitting through my amatuer questions :)

~Stephan

[Ron Lemming]

Dave: My stabilizer is constructed just like yours, only mine is made of wood and it's a bit longer so my hands are a bit further away from the camera. Hands further away from the camera = more steady. As I said earlier this construction did not help my HV20 but it does wonders with my old Sony.
So I really hope my HV20 is just defective. I can't wait to take a properly working HV20 for a walk with this simple stabilizer.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Hi Steve -

1. This is where the lanc comes in handy, BUT if you don't have the bracets too far outboard, you should be able to reach the joystick on the HV20 - I can adjust all the touchscreen controls on the Sony with my thumb while holding the rig steady, and my left hand still on the handle. It's also possible to use the right thumb for record/zoom the same way. LANC is BETTER, but not a necessity in my mind.

2. These are standard camera brackets - tons of different ones available on Fleabay, not all are suitable, but most are way cheap. Main thing is they should be fairly stiff, and clear the LCD... The particular folding bracket in the pic is a Stratos mini folding flash bracket - Google it and you'll find two suppliers (they are hard to find, but only $20 @ new) - the flat one is a Japanese import, I had one floating around, just found another from a vendor on Fleabay out of Texas ($11 shipped), but I'm sure they can be had elsewhere - it's really just a bridge for the other two, but it does have a tripod socket in the bottom of the screw for mounting to tripod or a quick release. The folding brackets can also be used individually, but I like the dual setup.

3. See above - it's a standard 1/4-20, the brackets each have a screw - the outboard ones mount to the flat, the flat to the cam.

4. If I had one, I would do it! Main thing is too much weight up top can be an issue - with a 20w light and big SQ91D battery, the CG (center of gravity) goes a bit squirrely, but still manageable, with a mid size battery (SQ71D) it actually serves to counterbalance if you have a WA lens... You could also possibly add some weight to the bottom of the rig via the aforementioned tripod screw, but keep in mind part of the ease of use of this small rig is the light weight - load it up too much, and it sort of defeats the purpose <wink>!

Now that Steve has suggested a cool new accessory..... anyone know where I can get a cheap 3.5-6" widescreen with decent resolution???

DB>)


PS - should know if an HV20 handles well on this setup next week Tuesday.... I expect it to since the camera is very similar to the HC7 layout - will be testing the OIS especially in view of this and other threads seeming to mention the potential problem - I can say for sure that bad camera technique is not going to fly with HDV.... ANY HDV. My HC3 was not as stable as the HC1 and HC7, and it was tougher to get smooth video, but this rig works well with both of those cams.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Originally Posted by Ron Lemming

Dave: My stabilizer is constructed just like yours, only mine is made of wood and it's a bit longer so my hands are a bit further away from the camera. Hands further away from the camera = more steady. As I said earlier this construction did not help my HV20 but it does wonders with my old Sony.
So I really hope my HV20 is just defective. I can't wait to take a properly working HV20 for a walk with this simple stabilizer.

Hi Ron -
I've got an HV20 coming in next week, and I'll definitely be looking at this issue - I know that the HV10 got poor marks for image stabilizing in extreme conditions (skydiving /action sports), so that was one of my concerns, but I'm seeing very good low light performance out of the HV20, and I want to play some with the 24p mode. Had an old Japanese Panasonic with frame (progressive) mode, always liked the results from that camera.

One comment on your rig (I'd have to see a pic to know for sure) - the wood could simply have too much mass relative to the camera <wink>? My setup is all machined aluminum/plastic/foam, weighs about nothing... and I can adjust the distance of the outboard brackets - they just seem "about right" where I can thumb the controls. I think the small size of these cams sort of shrinks everything down to match ... including any stabilizing arrangement you might use!

I'll let you know what I see once I have this puppy in hand - you may just have a bunk unit. I really love the Sony HC7, but I have an ulterior motive if the 20 can perform as well as it appears to in low light... The HC7 is pretty good, but the samples I've seen of the HV20 look better when it's really dark. I'm hoping the stabilizing issue is just a few 'bad apples'.

DB>)

[Povl H. Pedersen]

I have the same problems as some other people here.

If I walk, trying to do it at slower than normal speed, an focus on a smooth movement, whenever I put a foot on the ground, there is a little jerking that will hit the camera, and something happens.

I do not think it is the warping some see with the HV-10, but it sometimes looks like the camera is tilted perfectly a bit up/down over the balance point (so I guess it is the lense you can hear rattle that gives the problem).

My experience with Canon IS on their 35mm EOS lenses is very good. And they do not rattle. So I wonder if there is one lense that is coming lose inside the camera, or if it infact is a bad IS design.

[Austin Meyers]

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...ghlight=issues

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv2...ues%20720p.mov

a previous discussion on this subject...

i have since built this...

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/steadyrig3.jpg

which yields this...

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/steadycam-web.mov

also of note this was shot in 24p, and the 60i is even smoother.