HV20 Cannot Shoot True 24p?

[Jason Morrow]

can someone please explain this...I found this in a review of the HV20....

"First of all, realize that the camera has to - by HDV standards,
must write the video as 1080i60. There's no option.
Therefore, the camera writes 24p to tape by doing telecine
with a pppii cadence inroute to the tape. In order to get 24p
into your editor, you have to capture the footage, reverse
telecine and... here's the fun...

every start/stop of the hv20 does NOT start at the same
cadence during the recording. that means, if you record, hit
pause, then record again, its arbitrary where the cadence will
be. So you can't just use something like Cinema Tools to
reverse telecine the whole thing - you have to do it clip by
clip."

[Kevin Dorsey]

If you want to edit 24p in a 23.976 timeline, you have to remove the pulldown using After Effects or Cinema Tools. But you have to do it to each individual clip. It's a time consuming process, but necessary until the major NLE's can remove the pulldown. You can still edit your 24p footage in a 29.97 timeline without any problems.

[Mike Dulay]

Here's a try ...

Let me start by saying that the reviewer's statement is most relevant if you are into editing your videos on a computer. When you're doing this, you get the raw data as its stored in HDV so you have to deal with its idiosyncracies. If you're content with watching the video straight from the camcorder you won't run into it. But if you're like me and like to edit his videos then you need to be aware of it to "pull the sculpture from the stone."

The shot is in true progressive but its stored interlaced. The camera is labeled 1080i 60fps so when you hookup your component video cable to a display it expects a 1080i signal. To be compatible with that standard it stores the PF24 (progressive frames) inside the interlace stream. If you lookup other DV (not just HDV) cameras that are progressive, they use this technique as well. It's not new. In the comment he points out the cadence pppii (p=progressive frame, i=interlaced). There are two types of cadence commonly used. The one on the HV20 is optimized to make it easier to display (if I'm correct). The other which is advanced progressive makes it easier for software editing.

Now, on the HV20 not starting at a consistent progressive/interlace frame -- its something it has in common with other Canon HDV. This can make it tricky for getting the whole clip to look nicely progressive because it may begin with at the interlace part (imagine ipppiippp vs piipppiippp).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV

What does this mean in practical terms? I've read somewhere that you should press record early and allow a few seconds to press pause. That way if you're dealing with the raw clip you can just search for the first progressive frame and start your pull-down there. Sony Vegas was very good at doing this seamlessly for DV. We're hoping that an update will make this ease available in HDV also. When will it come, we don't know. In the meantime, you have to use more primitive (manual) means if you need to convert to a true progressive file (for reference and special effects -- "300" style slowmo).

For me it hasn't bothered me much. But then I don't do this for a living.

[Jason Morrow]

here's the deal...i will not be shooting 24 at all. and i will not be producing hd-dvd's...i am downscaling the final project to SD since the majority of people arent hd ready yet.

i film weddings, so do i need anything other than Premiere Pro to do my editing with this new camera...that is all I have needed until now...just my camera, my Premiere Pro and me.

For the time being I am mixing HV20 and XL1 footage until I sell the XL1 for a FX7

Thanks
~ Jason

[Rob Unck]

Originally Posted by Jason Morrow

i film weddings, so do i need anything other than Premiere Pro to do my editing with this new camera...that is all I have needed until now...just my camera, my Premiere Pro and me.

You don't need anything other than your camera and Premiere Pro.

Originally Posted by Jason Morrow

here's the deal...i will not be shooting 24 at all. and i will not be producing hd-dvd's...i am downscaling the final project to SD since the majority of people arent hd ready yet.

Why not shoot 24P?* It would looks great!

Understand that when you shoot in 24P on this camera, you can edit the footage in any "normal" 60i timeline (in other words, how you've always been editing in Premiere Pro.) You can export it as SD, burn it to an SD DVD and it will retain the 24P psuedo-filmic "look."

There's no need to do anything "complicated" like removing the pulldown to maintain the 24P look. As Kevin said above "You can still edit your 24p footage in a 29.97 timeline without any problems."

All that stuff about removing pulldown,etc is for people who want 100% true progressive frames in their finished project. If you don't want that, you don't have to do it -- you can still shoot in 24P, edit like "normal" in Premiere Pro and keep the 24P "look".

*(If you're mixing the HV20 footage with another camera without 24P capability in a multi-camera shoot, I understand why you wouldn't want to shoot in 24P. I'm just saying it can be a gorgeous look and there's nothing stopping you from using 24P with your current setup.)

[Jason Morrow]

to be totally honest, i hate 24P. it gives me eye fatigue, and since I am wanting to do beautiful slow motion, shooting in 24p would defeat that purpose.

~ Jason

[Brad Vaughan]

Amen! Glad to finally hear someone say this.

I was really trying to "like" the 24p footage, but it just frustrated my eyes too. I just don't care for the look at all.

[Robert Ducon]

So, yes, the HV20 shoots 24P fine as it was designed to. "TRUE" 24 progressive frames is one feature that the HV20 does that many other consumer cameras before it failed to be able to do!

Some people just happen not to like it, which is fine. It's a choice - if you don't like it, don't use it. Shoot 60i.

I find the title of this post misleading.

[Steve Hagan]

thank God someone finally said it. I fine it very hard to watch. Its a turn off.

[Giovanny Canales]

The title of this post should be: "I hate 24P".

[Wes Vasher]

The HV20 does shoot true 24p. No question about it.

[Rob Unck]

Originally Posted by Jason Morrow

to be totally honest, i hate 24P. it gives me eye fatigue, and since I am wanting to do beautiful slow motion, shooting in 24p would defeat that purpose.

~ Jason

No worries -- to each his own, but then why were you wondering if the HV20 can shoot true 24P (if you were never going it use it?) I'm with Robert a few posts back: I find the title of this thread misleading.

Jason, why not go with the HV10? The HV10 is just about the same camera -- but without the 24P capability.

[Peter J Alessandria]

Well "eye" for one love 24p. Will never shoot 60i again... (actually haven't in years - coming off a DVX100). My preference plus over and over I hear, "you videos look so much like film" so others seem to like it too.

[Eric Brown]

There was a discussion similar to this on another since defunct forum about the whole 60i vs 24p thing. Some people truly can't handle the look of 24p, while others (like myself) find it very pleasing to look at.
I'm beginning to wonder if the reason behind this may be more scientific with the way our brains are wired versus a mere aesthetic preference.

[Charles Papert]

May I just ask, although I am hesitant to contribute to yet another 24 vs 60 debate, for those who "can't stand" the look of 24p, do you have this problem when watching movies (i.e. 35mm originated), either on TV or in the theater? Or is it just with video? And has this always been the case, since you were a kid? I'm honestly curious.