HV20 cine mode more dynamic range? at DVinfo.net

Wes Vasher · April 26th, 2007, 01:04 PM

Here's a 1:1 crop of 1440x1080 video stream, Cine 1/48 5.6 and AV 1/70 F5.6. This is a pretty typical result when shooting cine, getting tons more information where in AV or Shutter mode the highlights blow out more, plus gradations such as the window near the top of the frame look superb with cine mode.

Sample image

James Bresnahan · April 26th, 2007, 01:15 PM

Very clear example, Wes. Doesn't this make you wonder about hidden parameters in the camera that Canon didn't care to expose at this price
level. I mean, its been said cine mode is changing things like gamma that are
user tweakable on the A1.

Jim

Tim Homola · April 26th, 2007, 01:17 PM

Wes, very interesting. I can see the blown highlights but I am also noticing a softness issue on the cine. Any comments?

I want to look at this more myself.

Tim

Fergus Anderson · April 26th, 2007, 01:19 PM

I have posted a comparison here:

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92468

Mark Nettleton · April 26th, 2007, 01:35 PM

I think the Cine "softness" issue is simply a lack of in-camera sharpening in Cine mode.

This is a good thing! You can always sharpen in post. But you can't remove sharpening artifacts from a sharpened image.

Fergus's Cine test frame with medium sharpening, (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92468) looks about equivalent to the Auto frame (minus the blown out hilites), to my eye.

Mark

Tim Homola · April 26th, 2007, 01:54 PM

Boy am I going to start digging into this. Very interesting. Looks like cine a post processing is the big ticket. Hmmmm...

Wes Vasher · April 26th, 2007, 02:08 PM

I locked the exposure at pretty much the auto setting and tried to get zebras looking similar at 70%. When I turned down exposure in AV mode so that the whites weren't so blown the rest of the trailer became much darker. The cine in general just gets more info in the darks and whites, is it just a higher contrast setting for the other modes I wonder. The little bit of contrast control Canon gives you in the effects doesn't do much.

Fergus Anderson · April 26th, 2007, 03:42 PM

Yes I agree with you Wes - Im starting to think that the cine mode could be very useful indeed

Michael Rosenberger · April 26th, 2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wes Vasher

I locked the exposure at pretty much the auto setting and tried to get zebras looking similar at 70%.

Quick OT question - having just received my HV-20 I haven't hit the manual yet. However, I assume when folks talk about zebra patterns they are talking about off camera monitoring, or does the HV-20 have zebra?

Thanks.

Mike Dulay · April 26th, 2007, 03:56 PM

Michael,

It has 70% Zebra, 100% Zebra and Peak. How to use them properly in Cine mode I don't know as its mostly automatic.

Neil Groundwater · April 26th, 2007, 10:13 PM

Neither ZEBRA nor PEAKING is listed in the DV20 manual's index. They are described under "assist functions" on page 43. After you select one of the functions, it is toggled by the FOCUS ASSIST button on the LCD display.

That is, FOCUS ASSIST zooms in on the image -- otherwise the zebra/peaking is 'on' and the image is normal size. "Peaking" is edge enhancement which artificially sharpens edges to help you focus.

Michael Rosenberger · April 27th, 2007, 01:49 AM

Thank you very much for the information and references. I use 80 IRE (I would assume the % corresponds) normally for skin, setting the exposure to where the zebra crawl just disappears on the hottest spots. Have to find out where 70% falls in that scheme. In any case, that is a surprising feature for such an inexpensive camera. Still figuring out what other functional gems will turn up. Time to RTFM, methinks.

Chris Barcellos · April 27th, 2007, 09:52 AM

Michael:

I'm finding usin 100 on the zebra setting and backing exposure off from there to eliminate seems to work pretty well to give you best exposure in the shadows too...

Peter J Alessandria · April 27th, 2007, 10:02 AM

Wes - thanks for your comparison. For me CineMode looks too soft and flat. That and the fact you can't lock a shutter have caused me to shy away from using it. You are right about the highlight issue though. My solution right now is to turn brightness and contrast down one notch -1 (and color depth +1 , sharpness 0) while shooting Tv mode. May revisit CineMode in the future but the idea my shutter could fluctuate makes me very wary of using it.

Ian G. Thompson · April 27th, 2007, 11:48 AM

This might have been mentioned before but Cinema mode seems to try and keep the shutter at 1/48. It's only when you move your aperter to +1 or -1 that it seems to change your shutter.

April 26th, 2007, 01:04 PM	#1
Wes Vasher Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 440	HV20 cine mode more dynamic range? Here's a 1:1 crop of 1440x1080 video stream, Cine 1/48 5.6 and AV 1/70 F5.6. This is a pretty typical result when shooting cine, getting tons more information where in AV or Shutter mode the highlights blow out more, plus gradations such as the window near the top of the frame look superb with cine mode. Sample image __________________ Clips \| Stills

April 26th, 2007, 02:08 PM	#7
Wes Vasher Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 440	I locked the exposure at pretty much the auto setting and tried to get zebras looking similar at 70%. When I turned down exposure in AV mode so that the whites weren't so blown the rest of the trailer became much darker. The cine in general just gets more info in the darks and whites, is it just a higher contrast setting for the other modes I wonder. The little bit of contrast control Canon gives you in the effects doesn't do much. __________________ Clips \| Stills

April 26th, 2007, 03:56 PM	#10
Mike Dulay Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Somerville, NJ Posts: 304	Michael, It has 70% Zebra, 100% Zebra and Peak. How to use them properly in Cine mode I don't know as its mostly automatic. __________________ DIY, 35mm, HV20: http://www.primitivebuteffective.net

April 26th, 2007, 10:13 PM	#11
Neil Groundwater New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 11	Zebra - how to enable it Neither ZEBRA nor PEAKING is listed in the DV20 manual's index. They are described under "assist functions" on page 43. After you select one of the functions, it is toggled by the FOCUS ASSIST button on the LCD display. That is, FOCUS ASSIST zooms in on the image -- otherwise the zebra/peaking is 'on' and the image is normal size. "Peaking" is edge enhancement which artificially sharpens edges to help you focus. Last edited by Neil Groundwater; April 27th, 2007 at 09:22 AM. Reason: added 2nd paragraph for clarity

April 27th, 2007, 01:49 AM	#12
Michael Rosenberger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Surprise, Arizona Posts: 143	Thank you very much for the information and references. I use 80 IRE (I would assume the % corresponds) normally for skin, setting the exposure to where the zebra crawl just disappears on the hottest spots. Have to find out where 70% falls in that scheme. In any case, that is a surprising feature for such an inexpensive camera. Still figuring out what other functional gems will turn up. Time to RTFM, methinks. __________________ Michael Rosenberger Sure I'll shoot your wedding, for two million dollars. Last edited by Michael Rosenberger; April 27th, 2007 at 01:57 AM. Reason: added thought.

April 26th, 2007, 01:15 PM	#2
James Bresnahan Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 30	Very clear example, Wes. Doesn't this make you wonder about hidden parameters in the camera that Canon didn't care to expose at this price level. I mean, its been said cine mode is changing things like gamma that are user tweakable on the A1. Jim

April 26th, 2007, 01:17 PM	#3
Tim Homola Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 30	Wes, very interesting. I can see the blown highlights but I am also noticing a softness issue on the cine. Any comments? I want to look at this more myself. Tim

April 26th, 2007, 01:19 PM	#4
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	I have posted a comparison here: http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92468

April 26th, 2007, 01:35 PM	#5
Mark Nettleton Tourist Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1	I think the Cine "softness" issue is simply a lack of in-camera sharpening in Cine mode. This is a good thing! You can always sharpen in post. But you can't remove sharpening artifacts from a sharpened image. Fergus's Cine test frame with medium sharpening, (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92468) looks about equivalent to the Auto frame (minus the blown out hilites), to my eye. Mark

April 26th, 2007, 01:54 PM	#6
Tim Homola Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 30	Boy am I going to start digging into this. Very interesting. Looks like cine a post processing is the big ticket. Hmmmm...

April 26th, 2007, 03:42 PM	#8
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	Yes I agree with you Wes - Im starting to think that the cine mode could be very useful indeed

April 27th, 2007, 09:52 AM	#13
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Michael: I'm finding usin 100 on the zebra setting and backing exposure off from there to eliminate seems to work pretty well to give you best exposure in the shadows too... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 27th, 2007, 10:02 AM	#14
Peter J Alessandria Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 293	Wes - thanks for your comparison. For me CineMode looks too soft and flat. That and the fact you can't lock a shutter have caused me to shy away from using it. You are right about the highlight issue though. My solution right now is to turn brightness and contrast down one notch -1 (and color depth +1 , sharpness 0) while shooting Tv mode. May revisit CineMode in the future but the idea my shutter could fluctuate makes me very wary of using it.

April 27th, 2007, 11:48 AM	#15
Ian G. Thompson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rockledge, Florida Posts: 351	This might have been mentioned before but Cinema mode seems to try and keep the shutter at 1/48. It's only when you move your aperter to +1 or -1 that it seems to change your shutter.