HV10 in car use problems/advice at DVinfo.net

muntazeem nazir · April 23rd, 2007, 01:07 AM

Hi all,

Im very new hear and very new to the world of camcorders, so forgive me for the noobie questions

I just purchased a Canon hv10 primarily as a in car camera for track days in my Lotus Elise.

I have bought a manfrotto super clamp and double socket head connected i all up and took it for a run.

1st run left the camera in full auto mode with factory settings.

The results was pretty bad - the vibrations were so sever that its just a blur.

2nd run - switched to Mode P - set apperature to 6 and shutter speed to 1/1000 with image stablity on and manual focus.

the image is in focus but the picture is moving around so violently that its still pretty useless.

3rd run - switched to Mode scn - sports with manual focus with much the same results as above.

Iv been trying to find a suitable anti vibration head for the super clamp or a diy solution (like a steadicam) to cure this but not found a thing!

Any advice or guidenece would be appreciated.

tia

Austin Meyers · April 23rd, 2007, 01:19 AM

i have an hv20 and vibration makes mine unusable as well. i've done some shooting from an aluminum boat with the cam on a tripod, and the vibration from the engine blurs everythign to hell. i'm currently looking into gyro's and if you budget is there these look pretty cool/useful...

http://www.ken-lab.com/stabilizers.html

muntazeem nazir · April 23rd, 2007, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin Meyers

i have an hv20 and vibration makes mine unusable as well. i've done some shooting from an aluminum boat with the cam on a tripod, and the vibration from the engine blurs everythign to hell. i'm currently looking into gyro's and if you budget is there these look pretty cool/useful...

http://www.ken-lab.com/stabilizers.html

Wow - just looked at the price tag ks4 is about £800 / $1500.

theres gotta be a diy solution or a cheaper stabiliser out there :(

Enea Lanzarone · April 23rd, 2007, 02:46 AM

You might want to consider a Suction Cup mount. I have had very good results both inside and outside my car with my old Panasonic 3ccd cam, image stabilization turned off. Even on relatively high speeds (on the highway) the image was quite steady, unless I hit a bump on the road.

Have a look here:

http://www.filmtools.com/succupmoun.html

I wonder if this is a specific problem with the HV10 & HV20, though. Did you guys try to turn image stabilization off? Maybe the "unusual" motion completely confuses the OIS and messes up the image.

I'll be testing my car mount, as soon as I have my HV20 (hopefully next week) and report my results here.

I could post my Panasonic footage as well, if you're interested. Let me know.

muntazeem nazir · April 23rd, 2007, 02:52 AM

Unfortunatley suction mounts are not allowed / starting to be banned at UK track events so i cant really test that out.

I have seen footage from other people using similar kit as me in an elise with great results.

What i need to test now is Sports/P mode with image stabiliser off and see what happens. It has got me thinking whether there is a problem with my car....but as u say it also could be a canon specific issue.

im brain storming a diy mod to the clamp that includes some kind of shock absorber.

Povl H. Pedersen · April 23rd, 2007, 03:14 AM

This is the only thing I am afraid of when I get my HV20.

I have seen reports on the HV10, saying that it does not work in vibrations. Supposedly something to do with the way the IS works. The adjustable lense seems to be too lose. I have also seen others day their camera does not have the problem, and maybe it is a defect on some models.

Sony is the preferred by most skydivers, it works with the vibrations that comes from 300+ km/h wind speed.

Canon is actually showing usage from inside a car on their webpage.

muntazeem nazir · April 23rd, 2007, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Povl H. Pedersen

This is the only thing I am afraid of when I get my HV20.

I have seen reports on the HV10, saying that it does not work in vibrations. Supposedly something to do with the way the IS works. The adjustable lense seems to be too lose. I have also seen others day their camera does not have the problem, and maybe it is a defect on some models.

Sony is the preferred by most skydivers, it works with the vibrations that comes from 300+ km/h wind speed.

Canon is actually showing usage from inside a car on their webpage.

I was affraid of it being an inherent problem. how would you even contest that you have a faulty unit.

should have bought a HC3/5 :(

Rick Llewellyn · April 23rd, 2007, 05:52 AM

I have tried to shoot from boats and vehicles with my HV10- with lots of problems, but obviously more benign conditions that a race car.

I found the biggest killer was the motion blur- so I shot at a high shutter speed, like 1/2000, then the picture is unusable because of the interlace field pair puts a studder into the imagery. Next, de-interlace it. Use one of the dumb interlace processors (like FCP) that just duplicates every other field. You are left with half resolution 30 fps video that I think is a big improvement.

You can try image stabalization software. It can compensate for a larger angle change than the OIS can, but you make still need some vibration isolation. Think about adding a large weight to the camera and suspending it with short surgical tubing.

I have had a terrible time in the past with ship engine vibration. If anyone has a suggestion I would be very interested.

Rick

Mike Teutsch · April 23rd, 2007, 06:46 AM

No stabilization system will work with higher frequency vibrations, as the optics will be unable to react quickly enough to compensate. This is the same with ALL cameras. They are meant to dampen slight movements caused by not being held steadily.

When mounting a camera to a race car you need to be very aware of where you are mounting it. Race cars are different from a normal car. In addition to the normal motion of a passenger car ie. normal car motions like slight rolls and dips etc.. the race car has many more.

To start with, all movements are exaggerated or enhanced. Then, you can add severe virbations from the engine, chassis, exhaust and the road.

A race car generally has stiffer suspension components which do not dampen movements as well and in addition you generally remove most if not all of the rubber dampening between the body and the frame which adds additionally to the vibration.

Then there is the exhaust system, which on a passenger car is tuned to reduce noise and dampen harmonics. In a race car the exhaust is generally tuned to a specific length to enhance the loading of the cylinders at higher RPMs and they are not designed to reduce harmonics and vibrations. That nice throaty sound, or other noise you hear are pulses from each of the cylinders as they exhaust after the power stoke. They are like a small explosion each time. With the more open exhaust system, no muffler to restrict gas movement, no pressure builds up to dampen each cylinders pulse.

When mounting a camera on these cars, you need to avoid any body parts like hoods(bonnets), trunk lids(boots?), dashes or anything not directly connected to the frame and solid. These parts or pieces will develop their own harmonics, or vibrations, separate from the actions that induce them. What I mean is that the car hits one bump and the hood can vibrate like a tuning fork until it stops.

Mount cameras to the frame or something directly and firmly affixed(welded) to it, like the roll bar or roll cage. The frames of race cars are stiff and designed to flex or twist as little as possible, because then the suspension can be tuned proper handling. The camera should be mounted as close as possible to that firm piece, and here is why. Using an arm or mount of some length, say 10 inches long, just adds more movement or harmonics to the camera. So, mount it as close as possible to the solid part. If it were practical, it would be great to just tape it directly to the roll bar, but of course it is not. You would get that sticky stuff all over the camera. :) But a mount welded directly to the bar, with a wide enough base to mount the camera to would be great! That would give the least length and the least vibration.

If you get a chance, you might post us a picture of your mount and I might be able to see how you might change it.

Anyway, have fun, I love racing cars!!!!! :)

Mike

Matthew Johnston · April 23rd, 2007, 06:55 AM

You could try an IO Port mount:

http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...tegory_Code=CM

It is what we use in rally cars that are not using lipstick cams.

Mike Teutsch · April 23rd, 2007, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Johnston

You could try an IO Port mount:

http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...tegory_Code=CM

It is what we use in rally cars that are not using lipstick cams.

That's much better than most, but I would prefer it not be quite so tall. At least it looks pretty solid.

Mike

muntazeem nazir · April 23rd, 2007, 07:43 AM

Thanks for that excellent reply Mike. Il try and take some pics of the mount / setup.

id post some of the vids iv taken but iv not got round to buying my firewire card yet!!!

My camera is mounted on the harness bar that is attached to the roll bar. I v had some guys from NVH ( here at work) take a look and they helped me spot that the bar i put in doesnt seem to have been fitted particularly well...

so eventhough it seems stiff and well bolted - they is still some play so im gonna give that once over to see if i can get that sorted.

As for the IO mount - that looks good - the damper is appealing to me....i just cant find anyone in the uk who sells it - or a retailer in the us who is willing to post to the uk!

Ill see how i get on and let you know.

thanks for the replies...

muntazeem nazir · April 23rd, 2007, 07:48 AM

[QUOTE=muntazeem nazir;665603]

As for the IO mount - that looks good - the damper is appealing to me....i just cant find anyone in the uk who sells it - or a retailer in the us who is willing to post to the uk!

QUOTE]

Ok just checked and i can get it shipped to the uk....will enquire to see how long it will take to come through.... i need it for this Saturday....eeek

muntazeem nazir · April 30th, 2007, 09:27 AM

Hi all,

just an update to my situation...

I got rid of the manfrotto double head and mounted the camera directly to the the superclamp.

Also i refitted the harness bar so that wasnt as loose as before.

I went out on my track day on saturday ( Donington National Circuit )

heres a link..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02204169567141

Now all the testing i was doing was on normal UK Roads so it was a relief to discover how smooth a race track really is.

Having said that the pitcture is still not very stable. at 100+ mph the picture is so bad it looks like there are 4 cars in front rather than one ! lol

so now im in a dilema....im contemplating ebaying the hv10 for a sony model as iv heard good things about sonys image stabilisation...

am i being too rash?

Which sony would i be looking at to replace this?

tia

Joe Busch · April 30th, 2007, 10:18 AM

I stuck a tripod in my backseat, using the two seatbelts wrapped around the legs to secure it and the legs extended down to the floor (one was in the middle of the back seat)

Only vibrations are from small potholes and speedbumps... honestly thought the footage looked pretty good...

April 23rd, 2007, 01:07 AM	#1
muntazeem nazir New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: UK Posts: 7	HV10 in car use problems/advice Hi all, Im very new hear and very new to the world of camcorders, so forgive me for the noobie questions I just purchased a Canon hv10 primarily as a in car camera for track days in my Lotus Elise. I have bought a manfrotto super clamp and double socket head connected i all up and took it for a run. 1st run left the camera in full auto mode with factory settings. The results was pretty bad - the vibrations were so sever that its just a blur. 2nd run - switched to Mode P - set apperature to 6 and shutter speed to 1/1000 with image stablity on and manual focus. the image is in focus but the picture is moving around so violently that its still pretty useless. 3rd run - switched to Mode scn - sports with manual focus with much the same results as above. Iv been trying to find a suitable anti vibration head for the super clamp or a diy solution (like a steadicam) to cure this but not found a thing! Any advice or guidenece would be appreciated. tia

April 23rd, 2007, 01:19 AM	#2
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	i have an hv20 and vibration makes mine unusable as well. i've done some shooting from an aluminum boat with the cam on a tripod, and the vibration from the engine blurs everythign to hell. i'm currently looking into gyro's and if you budget is there these look pretty cool/useful... http://www.ken-lab.com/stabilizers.html __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

April 23rd, 2007, 05:52 AM	#8
Rick Llewellyn Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Columbia, Maryland Posts: 61	Interlace problems I have tried to shoot from boats and vehicles with my HV10- with lots of problems, but obviously more benign conditions that a race car. I found the biggest killer was the motion blur- so I shot at a high shutter speed, like 1/2000, then the picture is unusable because of the interlace field pair puts a studder into the imagery. Next, de-interlace it. Use one of the dumb interlace processors (like FCP) that just duplicates every other field. You are left with half resolution 30 fps video that I think is a big improvement. You can try image stabalization software. It can compensate for a larger angle change than the OIS can, but you make still need some vibration isolation. Think about adding a large weight to the camera and suspending it with short surgical tubing. I have had a terrible time in the past with ship engine vibration. If anyone has a suggestion I would be very interested. Rick

April 23rd, 2007, 06:46 AM	#9
Mike Teutsch Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 2,614	No stabilization system will work with higher frequency vibrations, as the optics will be unable to react quickly enough to compensate. This is the same with ALL cameras. They are meant to dampen slight movements caused by not being held steadily. When mounting a camera to a race car you need to be very aware of where you are mounting it. Race cars are different from a normal car. In addition to the normal motion of a passenger car ie. normal car motions like slight rolls and dips etc.. the race car has many more. To start with, all movements are exaggerated or enhanced. Then, you can add severe virbations from the engine, chassis, exhaust and the road. A race car generally has stiffer suspension components which do not dampen movements as well and in addition you generally remove most if not all of the rubber dampening between the body and the frame which adds additionally to the vibration. Then there is the exhaust system, which on a passenger car is tuned to reduce noise and dampen harmonics. In a race car the exhaust is generally tuned to a specific length to enhance the loading of the cylinders at higher RPMs and they are not designed to reduce harmonics and vibrations. That nice throaty sound, or other noise you hear are pulses from each of the cylinders as they exhaust after the power stoke. They are like a small explosion each time. With the more open exhaust system, no muffler to restrict gas movement, no pressure builds up to dampen each cylinders pulse. When mounting a camera on these cars, you need to avoid any body parts like hoods(bonnets), trunk lids(boots?), dashes or anything not directly connected to the frame and solid. These parts or pieces will develop their own harmonics, or vibrations, separate from the actions that induce them. What I mean is that the car hits one bump and the hood can vibrate like a tuning fork until it stops. Mount cameras to the frame or something directly and firmly affixed(welded) to it, like the roll bar or roll cage. The frames of race cars are stiff and designed to flex or twist as little as possible, because then the suspension can be tuned proper handling. The camera should be mounted as close as possible to that firm piece, and here is why. Using an arm or mount of some length, say 10 inches long, just adds more movement or harmonics to the camera. So, mount it as close as possible to the solid part. If it were practical, it would be great to just tape it directly to the roll bar, but of course it is not. You would get that sticky stuff all over the camera. :) But a mount welded directly to the bar, with a wide enough base to mount the camera to would be great! That would give the least length and the least vibration. If you get a chance, you might post us a picture of your mount and I might be able to see how you might change it. Anyway, have fun, I love racing cars!!!!! :) Mike __________________ Chapter one, line one. The BH.

April 23rd, 2007, 06:55 AM	#10
Matthew Johnston Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: grand rapids michigan usa Posts: 54	You could try an IO Port mount: http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...tegory_Code=CM It is what we use in rally cars that are not using lipstick cams. __________________ www.mattjohnstonrally.com

April 23rd, 2007, 02:46 AM	#4
Enea Lanzarone Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53	You might want to consider a Suction Cup mount. I have had very good results both inside and outside my car with my old Panasonic 3ccd cam, image stabilization turned off. Even on relatively high speeds (on the highway) the image was quite steady, unless I hit a bump on the road. Have a look here: http://www.filmtools.com/succupmoun.html I wonder if this is a specific problem with the HV10 & HV20, though. Did you guys try to turn image stabilization off? Maybe the "unusual" motion completely confuses the OIS and messes up the image. I'll be testing my car mount, as soon as I have my HV20 (hopefully next week) and report my results here. I could post my Panasonic footage as well, if you're interested. Let me know.

April 23rd, 2007, 02:52 AM	#5
muntazeem nazir New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: UK Posts: 7	Unfortunatley suction mounts are not allowed / starting to be banned at UK track events so i cant really test that out. I have seen footage from other people using similar kit as me in an elise with great results. What i need to test now is Sports/P mode with image stabiliser off and see what happens. It has got me thinking whether there is a problem with my car....but as u say it also could be a canon specific issue. im brain storming a diy mod to the clamp that includes some kind of shock absorber.

April 23rd, 2007, 03:14 AM	#6
Povl H. Pedersen Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Aarhus, Denmark Posts: 28	This is the only thing I am afraid of when I get my HV20. I have seen reports on the HV10, saying that it does not work in vibrations. Supposedly something to do with the way the IS works. The adjustable lense seems to be too lose. I have also seen others day their camera does not have the problem, and maybe it is a defect on some models. Sony is the preferred by most skydivers, it works with the vibrations that comes from 300+ km/h wind speed. Canon is actually showing usage from inside a car on their webpage.

April 23rd, 2007, 07:43 AM	#12
muntazeem nazir New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: UK Posts: 7	Thanks for that excellent reply Mike. Il try and take some pics of the mount / setup. id post some of the vids iv taken but iv not got round to buying my firewire card yet!!! My camera is mounted on the harness bar that is attached to the roll bar. I v had some guys from NVH ( here at work) take a look and they helped me spot that the bar i put in doesnt seem to have been fitted particularly well... so eventhough it seems stiff and well bolted - they is still some play so im gonna give that once over to see if i can get that sorted. As for the IO mount - that looks good - the damper is appealing to me....i just cant find anyone in the uk who sells it - or a retailer in the us who is willing to post to the uk! Ill see how i get on and let you know. thanks for the replies...

April 23rd, 2007, 07:48 AM	#13
muntazeem nazir New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: UK Posts: 7	[QUOTE=muntazeem nazir;665603] As for the IO mount - that looks good - the damper is appealing to me....i just cant find anyone in the uk who sells it - or a retailer in the us who is willing to post to the uk! QUOTE] Ok just checked and i can get it shipped to the uk....will enquire to see how long it will take to come through.... i need it for this Saturday....eeek

April 30th, 2007, 09:27 AM	#14
muntazeem nazir New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: UK Posts: 7	Hi all, just an update to my situation... I got rid of the manfrotto double head and mounted the camera directly to the the superclamp. Also i refitted the harness bar so that wasnt as loose as before. I went out on my track day on saturday ( Donington National Circuit ) heres a link.. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02204169567141 Now all the testing i was doing was on normal UK Roads so it was a relief to discover how smooth a race track really is. Having said that the pitcture is still not very stable. at 100+ mph the picture is so bad it looks like there are 4 cars in front rather than one ! lol so now im in a dilema....im contemplating ebaying the hv10 for a sony model as iv heard good things about sonys image stabilisation... am i being too rash? Which sony would i be looking at to replace this? tia

April 30th, 2007, 10:18 AM	#15
Joe Busch Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sammamish, WA Posts: 398	I stuck a tripod in my backseat, using the two seatbelts wrapped around the legs to secure it and the legs extended down to the floor (one was in the middle of the back seat) Only vibrations are from small potholes and speedbumps... honestly thought the footage looked pretty good...