Workflow for HV20 1080i60 >> 1080p24 in FCP

[Rob Robinson]

What is the preferred workflow the mac envirnoment to capture 24p footage via fireware from the HV20 and ultimately be able to edit in Final Cut Pro using the HDV 1080p24 preset? I would rather not have to render the raw footage either (and have generation loss), just simply reverse the telecine.

Here is what I tried:

(all from within final cut pro 5.1.4)

1) Create a HDV 1080p24 preset and sequence
2) Capture a clip via fireware - a 1080i60 29.97fps clip is created
3) Attempt a reverse telecine with Cinema Tools

I get an error message saying a 29.97fps clip cannot be found? huh?

I then used an Apple Intermediate Codec preset and it worked fine (the reverse telecine from Cinema Tools worked) - but again I'd rather like to avoid the AIC and edit HDV natively.

So, does this mean its not currently possible to do reverse telecine on the native HDV codecs?

Thanks!

Rob Robinson

[Wes Vasher]

Seeing as how the 24p is encoded via long GOP MPEG2 in a 60i stream I can't see how you could remove the pull-down without re-rendering. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I think if ProRes is as good as Apple says then that'll be an ideal solution.

[Rob Robinson]

Wes,

Thanks for the reply. What you mention makes sense to me now - I forgot about that difference between HDV and AIC (the whole i-frames business). Sounds like then at least one uncompression is "mandatory" in order to access the individual frames (in order to peform the reverse telecine). I wonder why Cinema Tools reverse telecine doesnt just do all these steps for the HDV? Why does it "have" to be in AIC first? The ProRes 422 does sound interesting, but wouldn't you want perhaps a lossless intermediate to avoid a second generation loss? For example,

1) Capture HDV 1080i60 29.98fps
2) "Transcode" to Uncompressed 4:2:0 RGB
3) Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine the uncompressed file
4) "Transcode" to 1080p24 24fps
5) Remove intermediate Uncompressed file

I think I'll try this and see if FCP even lets you do reverse telecine on an uncompressed file?

[Wes Vasher]

The Pro Res HQ is supposed to be very good as far as multi-generation re-renders go. We'll have to wait and see though.

Of course when I say re-render I don't necessarily mean generation loss because I go right from HDV to uncompressed into After Effects, but I haven't edited anything, I'm just shooting shots for FX stuff. I'm not sure what I'd do if I had to edit anything of any length. I'd probably edit in DV and comform manually which I don't even want to think about. I'll wait for Pro Res.

[Kurt Madel]

Not sure if you saw, but the new Compressor 3 is supposed to perform reverse telecine - and get this - it is supposed to figure out the cadence automatically!

"Reverse telecine
Compressor 3 gives you the ability to convert 29.97-fps material to 23.98 fps. This
process is called 3:2 pulldown removal, or reverse telecine. In fact, there is a wide
range of pulldown schemes, or cadences, in addition to 3:2, and a sequence may
include footage with multiple cadences. Compressor uses an adaptive cadence
approach to sample and analyze the footage, then select the dominant cadence
to use for conversion."

Even so, I expect that FCP will handle this directly in the not too distant future.

[Wes Vasher]

It seems FCS2 has arrived (will arrive) just in time as a lot of us are really needing these features. I'm really counting on Compressor > ProRes then for onlining my footage. I always use auto for the pull-down finder in AE but I'm pretty sure it is always WSSWW.

[Jeff Alldridge]

It's kind of a cheat, but here's a quick way to capture the footage in Apple's intermediate codec.

Open iMovie HD
Create a new "My Great Movie" in 1080i
Capture the footage
Save, quit
Right click the recently captured "My Great Movie"
Goto "Show Package Contents"
Drag out the "Media" folder that contains every HDV clip in Apple's intermediate codec.

BOOM

Weird and stupid cheap work-around.

As far as I know it's no re-encoding.

[Rob Robinson]

Originally Posted by Jeff Alldridge

It's kind of a cheat, but here's a quick way to capture the footage in Apple's intermediate codec.

Open iMovie HD
Create a new "My Great Movie" in 1080i
Capture the footage
Save, quit
Right click the recently captured "My Great Movie"
Goto "Show Package Contents"
Drag out the "Media" folder that contains every HDV clip in Apple's intermediate codec.

BOOM

Weird and stupid cheap work-around.

As far as I know it's no re-encoding.

Jeff,

How is this different from just using the AIC preset in FCP? Does iMovie do something different (like the reverse telecine as well)?

My latest round (after finding out that using uncompressed intermediates is not that straightforward) is to just create a AIC preset with the a sequence frame rate of 23.98fps. Then once you capture the AIC 1080i60 29.97fps footage and do the reverse telecine you can drop that into the 23.98 sequence and it doesn't need to render it again. So this is only one generation loss from the original HDV source so I guess that's not all that bad considering there sounds like no other way to remove the pulldown without first uncompressing the MPEG temporal stream anyway. The only bummer is that when using AIC the Log and Capture doesn't allow for the usual HDV device controls (just start and stop record is all you get).

My "dream" workflow would be:

1) Easy Setup with a 1080p24 preset sequece
2) Capture using the usual HDV device controls
2) The reverse telecine is automatically performed
3) A 1080p24 clip is created with 23.98 fps as expected

[Rob Robinson]

Originally Posted by Kurt Madel

Not sure if you saw, but the new Compressor 3 is supposed to perform reverse telecine - and get this - it is supposed to figure out the cadence automatically!

"Reverse telecine
Compressor 3 gives you the ability to convert 29.97-fps material to 23.98 fps. This
process is called 3:2 pulldown removal, or reverse telecine. In fact, there is a wide
range of pulldown schemes, or cadences, in addition to 3:2, and a sequence may
include footage with multiple cadences. Compressor uses an adaptive cadence
approach to sample and analyze the footage, then select the dominant cadence
to use for conversion."

Even so, I expect that FCP will handle this directly in the not too distant future.

NICE! Sounds like they are anticipating the slew of HV20 users out there. Too bad you have to run Compressor though every time you capture footage first? Why not just have a preset that "knows" to reverse the telecine as part of the capture process?

[Jason Brown]

i thought you had to do one other step before opening up the capture in cinema tools. you had to open it up in quicktime, and trim the beginning so that the video starts on the first progressive frame rather then on a interlaced frame. so when you go frame by frame its p-p-p-i-i. save it and then run it thru cinema tools. or am i doing an unnecessary step?

[James Miller]

Hi Rob, I use easy setup / using the PAL preset 1080p 25. When captured using FCP the quicktime file it produces shows 'HDV 1080p25'. If yours show interlaced quit FCP and trash the prefs, it worked for me.

James

[Rick Llewellyn]

To continue Jason's thought: I understood that you not only had to open in Quicktime and manual trim frames, but you had to do it on EVERY clip. So if you shot a hour of video and ended up with 200 clips, you would have to go through that process for each and everyone.


Please tell me I am wrong.
Rick

[Adam McGilvray]

Yes, it must be done for every clip as each clip may start on a different frame in the cadence.

One more tidbit I've found. While starting a clip with pppii works fine for a single clip, to batch reverse telecine using CinemaTools, you need to start each clip with ppiip.

[Rob Robinson]

Originally Posted by Adam McGilvray

Yes, it must be done for every clip as each clip may start on a different frame in the cadence.

One more tidbit I've found. While starting a clip with pppii works fine for a single clip, to batch reverse telecine using CinemaTools, you need to start each clip with ppiip.

Interesting... I haven't captured that many clips yet with the HV20 (less than a dozen or so) but I didnt notice that I had to trim any of them. I couldn't have been that lucky to have them all start at the p-p-p-i-i boundary? I'll load a few more up and check them again. Is it possible the capture is always starting on a good boundary since its AIC and must first sync up with the i-frame in the HDV stream first anyway?

Either way - what a pain to capture these, huh? Compresser 3 will be welcomed, but still not the most seamless option.

[Rob Robinson]

Originally Posted by James Miller

Hi Rob, I use easy setup / using the PAL preset 1080p 25. When captured using FCP the quicktime file it produces shows 'HDV 1080p25'. If yours show interlaced quit FCP and trash the prefs, it worked for me.

James

I'm no PAL expert but isn't PAL already progressive so there is no pull-down required?

EDIT: Never mind - of course its not progressive. What I meant was that 3:2 doesn't make sense for PAL - does it?