Pls help to decide: HV20 vs. HC7

Ken Ross · April 19th, 2007, 12:16 PM

Interesting. I'd bet they didn't need a slow shutter speed for that kind of lighting. I've taken night shots like that and I always disable the slow shutter.

Dan Peterson · April 19th, 2007, 12:33 PM

Wolfgang,
Was the "x.v.color" on or off for the HC7 clips? I'm not asking because I expect to see an increased color range, I only ask because some folks have suggested, valid or not, that the x.v.color option somehow, in some scenarios, may degrade the signal. (?)

(BTW, thanks so much for doing this test!)

Update: Nevermind, I translated using Google and I see x.v.color is OFF. Thanks!

Wolfgang Winne · April 19th, 2007, 01:38 PM

<Was the "x.v.color" on or off for the HC7 clips?>

Off. (http://www.fxsupport.de/21.html in page 20 is xv=on)

George Anthonisen · April 19th, 2007, 03:47 PM

Those are bloody good samples Wolfgang... Thanks!

I THINK I would have to agree, although in some of the samples it was a bit of a coin toss, overall I would say that the canon is just a tinge sharper. But it's sometimes hard to tell... as Ken noted, both Sony and Canon approach this from 2 slightly different angles. Well... quite interesting none the less, and a picture's worth 1000 words, so now thanks to Wolfgang,we have some REAL samples to compare.

Dave Blackhurst · April 19th, 2007, 06:15 PM

Downloaded all the samples... VERY interesting, both cameras look very close in daylight, both looked pretty good to me, I saw a bit of the overstated reds (I guess I'm the only one that notices it?) with Canon... but it wasn't a big thing...

Definitely the low light goes to the Canon though, which is pretty amazing since the HC7 is not bad.

It was really surprising how close the two were considering...

DB>)

Dan Peterson · April 19th, 2007, 06:42 PM

I took a pair of the raw night footage clips into Vegas 7 used a split-screen mask to compare the footage. It starts with the HC7 footage on the left, HV20 on the right (and ends with the HC7 on the right). I re-rendered this to an .m2t file, so there is probably a slight amount of quality loss due to recompression, but not enough to matter for this comparison. No audio is included.

Here's a link to the footage:
http://rapidshare.com/files/26901332...20_09.m2t.html

I got give this one to the HV20.

update:
Here's a link comparing daytime footage:
http://rapidshare.com/files/26905230...20_01.m2t.html
Note the strange green tint of the left hand tree trunk that only occurs above the wall in the Sony footage. (once again, Sony HC7 starts on the left, ends on the right)

That HV20 takes some nice footage.

Ken Ross · April 19th, 2007, 07:44 PM

Yeah Dan, when I watched the night shot of the gas station, I noticed how much clearer the name on the pumps were with the Canon. Also look at the street sign when playing this clip and the difference is not at all slight.

I haven't downloaded your other clip...Rapid Share is making me wait. :)

But this is why everyone is so high on the little Canon...it's quite a camera.

George Anthonisen · April 20th, 2007, 04:10 AM

Good job Dan... Thanks. So often with these samples, you can't figure out if it's the cam or simply operator inexperience. But with Wolgang's shots, and your editing, we really do have something honest to compare.

From what I could see, the daylight pics are pretty much a draw. I'm not sure there is to be too much concern over the green spot on the tree. The Sony colors are clearly more vibrant (which I like) but Sony does provide adjustments to tone it down if you prefer. I think if there's anything to be said here is that Sony tends to include more saturation and less brightness, and with canon it's the other way around. If you sit there and concentrate hard enough on the brick wall, it becomes almost a shock when the picture changes from the sony to the canon... kind of like turning the light on after you've been in the dark for an hour. but the canon sure wins out on the low light video, no question about that.

Ken Ross · April 20th, 2007, 07:03 AM

Dan, this moring I downloaded the daytime A/B shots you did...again nice job. To my eyes the color of the Canon does look more realistic, but that's the way I've felt about both the HV10 and the HV20 relative to the small Sony cams. Iterestingly though, in some shots the Sony was warmer and in others the Canon was a bit warmer. Not surprising since both cams were in automatic. But generally Sony cams will lean toward the vibrant (not necessarily accurate, but pleasing and vibrant) because that's what their customers want. That's been pointed out in reviews too. TV displays are set up no differently. Manufacturers know that most people are drawn toward that kind of picture. Canon doesn't seem to aim its product toward the same market segment even though the pricing is the same. I find it odd, but I'm obviously happy they did.

One thing I found interesting in watching the Wolfgang's clips last night when it was dark in my living room, there is just no question the Canon is sharper and has less artifacts. If you're watching on a large enough display, you can see moire patterns in some areas of find detail such as fences on the Sony. The shot by the water with the guy coming toward the camera with his bike is one example. Take a look at the fence on the Sony shot and it's very hard to discern the vertical bars that make up the fence. On the Canon it's quite clear. There's another shot by the water with the van driving down the path. On the Sony shot the fence adjacent to the water has a moire pattern whereas the Canon is totally free of this artifact.

Dan Peterson · April 20th, 2007, 09:31 AM

I'd like to make sure the Color Slow Shutter and Auto Slow Shutter were both OFF on the HC7 for the night shots, because the difference is remarkable (almost like the gain or something is jacked up on the HC7).

Aside from that, though, the daylight footage with the HV20 wins. And I hate saying that because own an HC7! But I console myself with the fact that the HC7 has a LANC controller which I really like, and also that in my family I'm the only one who could tell the difference in the image quality between the HV20 and HC7. Also, I'm coming from a Sony Hi-8 camcorder, so the difference is huge for me already.

Lastly, and this is honestly NOT sour grapes or buyer's remorse, the HV20 design and ergonomics do not appeal to me in the least. And, shallow though I may be, visual design and ergonomics do matter to me. I'm a bit of a Sony snob in that respect. The HC7 is solid and feels great in my hand. I do wish I could get back the price difference though!

At this point, there is no perfect cam for me. My wish list would include the following, 1920 x 1080 acquisition (kind of like RED!), with LANC, manual shutter, aperature, WB, and a focus ring. Price it around $2000 and everbody would be happy. But it's not gonna happen any time soon.

George Anthonisen · April 20th, 2007, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Peterson

Lastly, and this is honestly NOT sour grapes or buyer's remorse, the HV20 design and ergonomics due not appeal to me in the least. I'm a bit of a Sony snob in that respect. The HC7 is solid and feels great in my hand. I do wish I could get back the price difference though!

At this point, there is no perfect cam for me.

I could not agree more. By nature I'm a canon person, but I'm quite disappointed in the build quality of the HV20 and would much prefer the HC7 from that aspect. I considered trading off the HV20 for the HC7, but after seeing the low light footage, which is quite important for me... i guess I'll stick with the Canon for now and as you, admit that there is no perfect cam for me this year.... maybe next year!?

Dennis Vogel · April 20th, 2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Peterson

At this point, there is no perfect cam for me. My wish list would include the following, 1920 x 1080 acquisition (kind of like RED!), with LANC, manual shutter, aperature, WB, and a focus ring. Price it around $2000 and everbody would be happy. But it's not gonna happen any time soon.

I think a lot of us are in the same boat. I thought the HC7 would be a great cam but the flimsy focus wheel is a real problem as is the touch screen for me. Then I thought it would be the HV20 but it's build is described as flimsy and it, too, suffers from a cheap focus wheel. Then came word of the HD7 but it's OIS sounds really bad. I'm not so sure about its video; I still need to do some side-by-side comparisons like yours by editing together some of the clips I've seen around the Web.

Like you, I'm ready for put down $2K for a cam that has what I want. I'll settle for HDV and I don't even care about LANC. The rest of your specs are what we need. Maybe the HV30, HC8 or HD8 will be the cam. I hope the manufacturers are reading this.

And, if you're not tired of hearing it, great job on the side-by-side tests. It really makes it easy to see the differences.

Good luck.

Dennis

PS: I'm not seeing any green tint. Maybe I don't know where to look or my bad color vision is masking it.

Ken Ross · April 20th, 2007, 02:23 PM

I think you guys are talking about a pipe dream. We've got $7,000-8,000 HDV camcorders that don't have these features. If you want to get something within the next few years, you're probably going to have to temper your expecations....which frankly I think are not realistic.

Everybody has a 'hot button' and a 'must have' feature. If manufacturers were to put in every feature that everyone wanted, we'd have a 10lb camcorder priced at $20,000. ;)

It seems many people are always waiting for that 'next gen' cam which is 'sure' to be better....but many of these people will never get a cam. Life is short guys, enjoy what's out now and when that dream cam comes along, just trade what you've got. The best cams of today are amazingly close to broadcast quality. In my mind that's nothing short of amazing. Memories are fleeting and waiting to be captured today....I'll take a camcorder today with superb picture quality that might not feel like it's built like a tank. In a few years I won't even remember what this camera looked like.

George Anthonisen · April 20th, 2007, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

I think you guys are talking about a pipe dream.

Could well be.... but then it's our pipe dream! :)

Ken Ross · April 20th, 2007, 02:32 PM

Yeah, but as I said, those without a high picture quality acquisition device will miss many memories until (if) that dream cam ever comes. They'll regret that down the road.

April 19th, 2007, 12:33 PM	#17
Dan Peterson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 61	Wolfgang, Was the "x.v.color" on or off for the HC7 clips? I'm not asking because I expect to see an increased color range, I only ask because some folks have suggested, valid or not, that the x.v.color option somehow, in some scenarios, may degrade the signal. (?) (BTW, thanks so much for doing this test!) Update: Nevermind, I translated using Google and I see x.v.color is OFF. Thanks! Last edited by Dan Peterson; April 19th, 2007 at 01:33 PM.

April 19th, 2007, 01:38 PM	#18
Wolfgang Winne Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bremen, Germany Posts: 176	<Was the "x.v.color" on or off for the HC7 clips?> Off. (http://www.fxsupport.de/21.html in page 20 is xv=on) __________________ Wolfgang Winne www.ohrwurmaudio.de www.fxsupport.de

April 19th, 2007, 06:42 PM	#21
Dan Peterson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 61	I took a pair of the raw night footage clips into Vegas 7 used a split-screen mask to compare the footage. It starts with the HC7 footage on the left, HV20 on the right (and ends with the HC7 on the right). I re-rendered this to an .m2t file, so there is probably a slight amount of quality loss due to recompression, but not enough to matter for this comparison. No audio is included. Here's a link to the footage: http://rapidshare.com/files/26901332...20_09.m2t.html I got give this one to the HV20. update: Here's a link comparing daytime footage: http://rapidshare.com/files/26905230...20_01.m2t.html Note the strange green tint of the left hand tree trunk that only occurs above the wall in the Sony footage. (once again, Sony HC7 starts on the left, ends on the right) That HV20 takes some nice footage. Last edited by Dan Peterson; April 19th, 2007 at 07:29 PM.

April 20th, 2007, 04:10 AM	#23
George Anthonisen Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Winnipeg Canada Posts: 51	Good job Dan... Thanks. So often with these samples, you can't figure out if it's the cam or simply operator inexperience. But with Wolgang's shots, and your editing, we really do have something honest to compare. From what I could see, the daylight pics are pretty much a draw. I'm not sure there is to be too much concern over the green spot on the tree. The Sony colors are clearly more vibrant (which I like) but Sony does provide adjustments to tone it down if you prefer. I think if there's anything to be said here is that Sony tends to include more saturation and less brightness, and with canon it's the other way around. If you sit there and concentrate hard enough on the brick wall, it becomes almost a shock when the picture changes from the sony to the canon... kind of like turning the light on after you've been in the dark for an hour. but the canon sure wins out on the low light video, no question about that. Last edited by George Anthonisen; April 20th, 2007 at 05:02 AM.

April 19th, 2007, 12:16 PM	#16
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Interesting. I'd bet they didn't need a slow shutter speed for that kind of lighting. I've taken night shots like that and I always disable the slow shutter.

April 19th, 2007, 03:47 PM	#19
George Anthonisen Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Winnipeg Canada Posts: 51	Those are bloody good samples Wolfgang... Thanks! I THINK I would have to agree, although in some of the samples it was a bit of a coin toss, overall I would say that the canon is just a tinge sharper. But it's sometimes hard to tell... as Ken noted, both Sony and Canon approach this from 2 slightly different angles. Well... quite interesting none the less, and a picture's worth 1000 words, so now thanks to Wolfgang,we have some REAL samples to compare.

April 19th, 2007, 06:15 PM	#20
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Downloaded all the samples... VERY interesting, both cameras look very close in daylight, both looked pretty good to me, I saw a bit of the overstated reds (I guess I'm the only one that notices it?) with Canon... but it wasn't a big thing... Definitely the low light goes to the Canon though, which is pretty amazing since the HC7 is not bad. It was really surprising how close the two were considering... DB>)

April 19th, 2007, 07:44 PM	#22
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Yeah Dan, when I watched the night shot of the gas station, I noticed how much clearer the name on the pumps were with the Canon. Also look at the street sign when playing this clip and the difference is not at all slight. I haven't downloaded your other clip...Rapid Share is making me wait. :) But this is why everyone is so high on the little Canon...it's quite a camera.

April 20th, 2007, 07:03 AM	#24
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Dan, this moring I downloaded the daytime A/B shots you did...again nice job. To my eyes the color of the Canon does look more realistic, but that's the way I've felt about both the HV10 and the HV20 relative to the small Sony cams. Iterestingly though, in some shots the Sony was warmer and in others the Canon was a bit warmer. Not surprising since both cams were in automatic. But generally Sony cams will lean toward the vibrant (not necessarily accurate, but pleasing and vibrant) because that's what their customers want. That's been pointed out in reviews too. TV displays are set up no differently. Manufacturers know that most people are drawn toward that kind of picture. Canon doesn't seem to aim its product toward the same market segment even though the pricing is the same. I find it odd, but I'm obviously happy they did. One thing I found interesting in watching the Wolfgang's clips last night when it was dark in my living room, there is just no question the Canon is sharper and has less artifacts. If you're watching on a large enough display, you can see moire patterns in some areas of find detail such as fences on the Sony. The shot by the water with the guy coming toward the camera with his bike is one example. Take a look at the fence on the Sony shot and it's very hard to discern the vertical bars that make up the fence. On the Canon it's quite clear. There's another shot by the water with the van driving down the path. On the Sony shot the fence adjacent to the water has a moire pattern whereas the Canon is totally free of this artifact.

April 20th, 2007, 09:31 AM	#25
Dan Peterson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 61	I'd like to make sure the Color Slow Shutter and Auto Slow Shutter were both OFF on the HC7 for the night shots, because the difference is remarkable (almost like the gain or something is jacked up on the HC7). Aside from that, though, the daylight footage with the HV20 wins. And I hate saying that because own an HC7! But I console myself with the fact that the HC7 has a LANC controller which I really like, and also that in my family I'm the only one who could tell the difference in the image quality between the HV20 and HC7. Also, I'm coming from a Sony Hi-8 camcorder, so the difference is huge for me already. Lastly, and this is honestly NOT sour grapes or buyer's remorse, the HV20 design and ergonomics do not appeal to me in the least. And, shallow though I may be, visual design and ergonomics do matter to me. I'm a bit of a Sony snob in that respect. The HC7 is solid and feels great in my hand. I do wish I could get back the price difference though! At this point, there is no perfect cam for me. My wish list would include the following, 1920 x 1080 acquisition (kind of like RED!), with LANC, manual shutter, aperature, WB, and a focus ring. Price it around $2000 and everbody would be happy. But it's not gonna happen any time soon.

April 20th, 2007, 02:23 PM	#28
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	I think you guys are talking about a pipe dream. We've got $7,000-8,000 HDV camcorders that don't have these features. If you want to get something within the next few years, you're probably going to have to temper your expecations....which frankly I think are not realistic. Everybody has a 'hot button' and a 'must have' feature. If manufacturers were to put in every feature that everyone wanted, we'd have a 10lb camcorder priced at $20,000. ;) It seems many people are always waiting for that 'next gen' cam which is 'sure' to be better....but many of these people will never get a cam. Life is short guys, enjoy what's out now and when that dream cam comes along, just trade what you've got. The best cams of today are amazingly close to broadcast quality. In my mind that's nothing short of amazing. Memories are fleeting and waiting to be captured today....I'll take a camcorder today with superb picture quality that might not feel like it's built like a tank. In a few years I won't even remember what this camera looked like.

April 20th, 2007, 02:32 PM	#30
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Yeah, but as I said, those without a high picture quality acquisition device will miss many memories until (if) that dream cam ever comes. They'll regret that down the road.