Sony User Tries Canon HV20

[Chris Barcellos]

David:

I don't think I got it backward, but I am going to just reshoot it to see if I get the same result. I was surprised as you were, because I shot some cine mode last night on my 35mm adapter, and what you indicated was true. Seemed that everything was "flatter". But when I shot this scene, I was looking to crush things on the low side a bit, and that's why I shot with both setting by running the exposure down -5 on each shot. I get back to you after I recreate the scene just to be sure.

[Chris Barcellos]

David:

I reshot the test, and I believe it shows you were right. Somehow I got the order wrong in which I thought I shot the two scenes. I am uploading the reshoot, but the first shot on the reshoot is the 24ponly and the second is the cine mode. There is voice on the track this time to confirm. Probably will be up in about half an hour.

MEANWHILE, TO ALL THAT HAVE DOWNLOADED THEM, MY LABELS ARE BACKWARD ON THE Cine Mode and 24p only clips.

Thanks for catching that David.

Edit:

Here is reshot test footage, all on one clip: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9DMU933Y

[Chris Barcellos]

So I've been trying to tune my DIY 35m adapter, and rigged a way to attach the HV20. Mind you, this thing is a bit unpredictable, and I have a Letus coming, but I have been able to get some images with this set up. The adapter is a rough approximation of the Micro 35 do it yourself project, that you can order plans from from Redrock.

At this point, it appears that an achromat is in order. I am using one I bought from Cinevate. Would love to actully try their adapter, but, well you know I spent my money on a camera instead. Here are picture of what I rigged up. An upload of some clips is pending and I will post.

[Chris Barcellos]

These brief clips were shot with the Adapter described in the previous post.
Camera set at 24 p, TV. I had the shutter at 1/60. These shots were taken to learn a bit about what needs to be done to shoot with a 35mm adapter.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GQ9Z51P4

[David Garvin]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

MEANWHILE, TO ALL THAT HAVE DOWNLOADED THEM, MY LABELS ARE BACKWARD ON THE Cine Mode and 24p only clips.

Thanks for catching that David.

Hey man, thank you for posting those clips.

So, the thing I noticed in other sample cinemode clips was that there were no true blacks. Even the darkest part of the frame seemed mushy to me in a dark gray but not quite black kind of way.

So I grabbed a frame and took it into photoshop and noticed that, indeed, even the darkest shadows weren't at full black. Even though it's so completely dark that there is no detail available at all, it's still not captured as true 100% black. And the histogram backs that up. There just seems to be something in the cinemode preset that puts even total absence of light up at a dark-gray area.

To me, the interesting thing about your cine mode sample is the fact that you brought the exposure down to -5. This puts the darkest areas of your frame at about 99% complete black. Much closer to what I'd want to see in an image. Knowing that the bottom end can be brought down to black through the exposure settings is good to know.

[Fergus Anderson]

Chris just also wanted to say thanks for posting these clips - really helpful

I really like the look of the cine mode apart from the sharpness-5. The image loks a little too soft for me. I wish there were a way to keep the rest of the settings and push the hsarpness back up to 0

Anyway thanks again - kep em comng!

[David Garvin]

Originally Posted by Fergus Anderson

I really like the look of the cine mode apart from the sharpness-5. The image loks a little too soft for me. I wish there were a way to keep the rest of the settings and push the hsarpness back up to 0

I have a similar kind of feeling, although mine comes from the opposite direction. My wish would be that I could just apply the curve or gamma or whatever to the HV20's regular mode settings. After looking at the highlights in the cinemode versus the clipped whites of the same image in the regular mode, I just wish I could tweak the regular mode a bit but keep it's crispness. I like everything about the regular mode except for the complete loss of detail in the highlights.

But then I just keep in mind that it IS basically just a consumer handycam and I should be happy that it looks so good for $1000!

Not to thread-jack, but here is a link to the other comparison clips I'd been looking at. The sky in these really shows the difference between the cine mode and non cine mode and the loss of detail in regular shooting mode. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....3&postcount=23

[Mark Patrick Anderson]

Just to chime in here. I've had the HV20 for five days and put it through a gamut of tests (using my eyes and flicking my fingers up and down being one of them). I think CineMode is locking the shutter at 1/24. Yes, I like the detail in the highs but 1/24 is for the birds unless you are shooting stars in the night sky. Try it, set TV mode to 1/48 and switch immediately to Cinemode while waving your fingers in front of the cam at the same rate. I've done this in various light conditions and Cinemode is always more blurry in how it handles motion. You can't even EXP up in Cinemode without even slower shutter rates kicking in. That alone tells me it is 1/24 to begin with or it would go to 1/24 as you EXP up. I use TV mode exclusively, that way I can be assured I am shooting at the correct shutter I want. Thank you Canon for TV mode without it the cam would have went back to the store. I love this cam.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Mark Patrick Anderson

Just to chime in here. I've had the HV20 for five days and put it through a gamut of tests (using my eyes and flicking my fingers up and down being one of them). I think CineMode is locking the shutter at 1/24. Yes, I like the detail in the highs but 1/24 is for the birds unless you are shooting stars in the night sky. Try it, set TV mode to 1/48 and switch immediately to Cinemode while waving your fingers in front of the cam at the same rate. I've done this in various light conditions and Cinemode is always more blurry in how it handles motion. You can't even EXP up in Cinemode without even slower shutter rates kicking in. That alone tells me it is 1/24 to begin with or it would go to 1/24 as you EXP up. I use TV mode exclusively, that way I can be assured I am shooting at the correct shutter I want. Thank you Canon for TV mode without it the cam would have went back to the store. I love this cam.

I agree Mark with respect to the Cinemode. It seems to me that you do lose some resolution, that is due to that setting, and I agree, the only thing that happens when you increase the exposure, is you get your shutter speed slowed and it looks like an old Sony VX2000 progressive mode (which was 15 fps). I haven't played with TV mode at 24 fps to see if you could match the picture.

The camera also offers various setting for certain situation under the same selection menu you select shutter or aperature priority, or Program AE or Cinemode. They include portrait, night, snow, beach, sunset, spotlight,
fireworks. We need to be analyzing these presets for various applications to.

Then you have the White balance choices, followed by image effects, which provide a lot more control then people are letting on. In that setting menu, you can go to custom, and set color depth, sharpness, contrast, and brightness.

So though they aren't under the traditional labels the pros use, there does seem to be a lot one can do to set this camera up in a manner that is satisfactory.

I am becoming more and more impressed.

May have a few more clips to post this evening, though they would be family holiday type thing.

[Ben Troxell]

Thanks for all the clips. I'm definitely buying the HV20! Looks absolutely incredible. I wish that I didn't have to wait like 3 hours between downloads. I tried a proxy, but I got some kind of java script error when I tried to download it.

Anyways, i'll be watching the streetball clip next. What mode would you suggest using to record paintball clips (high speed objects, lots of panning and moving)?

[David Garvin]

Originally Posted by Mark Patrick Anderson

I set TV mode to 1/48 and switch immediately to Cinemode while waving your fingers in front of the cam at the same rate. I've done this in various light conditions and Cinemode is always more blurry in how it handles motion. You can't even EXP up in Cinemode without even slower shutter rates kicking in. That alone tells me it is 1/24 to begin with or it would go to 1/24 as you EXP up.

That's very very interesting Mark. Thanks a bunch for testing that. Since the cinemode will apparently slow the shutter down below 1/24th, are you 100% sure it won't go any faster at all? I know you said you've tried the 'finger test' in various light conditions, but have you tried it pointed at something extremely bright, like right at a light itsef? I'm not doubting you, I'm just wondering if the camera would actually stop all the way down and activate the NDs just to avoid going any faster than 1/24th

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

The camera also offers various setting for certain situation under the same selection menu you select shutter or aperature priority,

image effects, which provide a lot more control then people are letting on. In that setting menu, you can go to custom, and set color depth, sharpness, contrast, and brightness.

That's also very interesting to know. I wonder if you could set up a pseudo-cine mode look while avoiding the cinemode preset and get the best of both worlds by using Tv, 24p and custom settings.

I'm looking at that part of the manual now where it lists the custom settings you list above. Reported elsewhere on dvinfo, the cinemode settings are

Gamma: Cine 1, Knee: Low, Black: Stretch, Sharpness: -4, Color Matrix: Cine 1, Color Gain: -20, Color Phase: +5, Red-Blue: -5, Green-Red: -5, Blue-Red: +5, and Red-Green: +12

Obviously the HV20 doesn't give you all those options to control manually, but having control over contrast, color depth and sharpness is certainly something. I guess the gamma control would be the one missing item there that could really make the difference between the cinemode pre-set and being able to roll your own.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Ben Troxell

Thanks for all the clips. I'm definitely buying the HV20! Looks absolutely incredible. I wish that I didn't have to wait like 3 hours between downloads. I tried a proxy, but I got some kind of java script error when I tried to download it.

Anyways, i'll be watching the streetball clip next. What mode would you suggest using to record paintball clips (high speed objects, lots of panning and moving)?

First thing you will have to decide is between 24p and 60i. With fast motion panning, you may find that 60i will be better. In 60i, and given the outdoor good light setting, I would try a high shutter speed to see if you can get that "Private Ryan" look. 24p has that feel too, but the pans and such, may be a problem for you. Experiment, and you may be able to shoot 24p fine in that action situation.

[Chris Barcellos]

In another thread, the question of microphone on the camera came up. Tonight I dressed out my HV20 with Beachtek DXA-3 adpater, and mounted my Sennheiser ME66 with K6 power module on a digital slr flash bar I had. To complete the set up, in mounted my Kenko 58mm thread .65x wide angle adapter on the front. Pictures provided below.

Need Wide angle adapter ? I think so. With the bit of experience I've had with wedding shooting, I think a wide would be essential, especially in the dressing rooms scenes, and interior car scenes. I travel by car today to Easter dinner with grand kids in car, and shot them during the trip, with the wide on and wide off. Pretty tight without the wide adapter. See last two photos in group below.

I think a wide adapter should be part of your budget.

[Ali Husain]

thanks for testing! i also tested mine, and in not-extremely-low light i'm 80% certain cinemode is locking the shutter to 1/48th. i tested it against 1/60th and 1/48th and 1/24th for TV mode and it looks like it matches 1/48th.

Originally Posted by Mark Patrick Anderson

Just to chime in here. I've had the HV20 for five days and put it through a gamut of tests (using my eyes and flicking my fingers up and down being one of them). I think CineMode is locking the shutter at 1/24. Yes, I like the detail in the highs but 1/24 is for the birds unless you are shooting stars in the night sky. Try it, set TV mode to 1/48 and switch immediately to Cinemode while waving your fingers in front of the cam at the same rate. I've done this in various light conditions and Cinemode is always more blurry in how it handles motion. You can't even EXP up in Cinemode without even slower shutter rates kicking in. That alone tells me it is 1/24 to begin with or it would go to 1/24 as you EXP up. I use TV mode exclusively, that way I can be assured I am shooting at the correct shutter I want. Thank you Canon for TV mode without it the cam would have went back to the store. I love this cam.

[Fergus Anderson]

I would be very suprised if cinemode was locked at 1/24 - my guess would be 1/48.

Can anyone confirm if there is a way to adjust the sharpness upwards in cine mode?