Image Stabilization Issues? at DVinfo.net

Austin Meyers · March 25th, 2007, 07:22 AM

i'm not sure if it's just my unit, or just the form factor i'm not used to, but i have an extremely hard time keeping this cam useably still. shouldn't one be able to walk holding the cam and shoot with out the image bouncing all over? even walking cradling the cam with both hands i can't get a useable image.

some samples of things that bother me. notice the warping of some frames, and what appears to be the OIS jumping around. all of these shots were shot hand held, although most were shot with the cam cradled in my hand, set on top of my leg as i was sitting down.

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv2...ues%20720p.mov

am i too sensitive or does it seem like the OIS isn't helping/maybe even hurting?

i have an xl1s and a canon tele eos lens with ois, and i have no problems with those.

anybody else got any footage where they're moving with this cam?

thanks

Mike Dulay · March 25th, 2007, 11:30 AM

The jumpiness of the image reminds me of those cheap MPEG4 digicamcorders. I also get those if I reused the same MiniDV tape more than once in my Canon Elura / ZR200. Just a guess. Maybe issue writing to tape?

Chris Hurd · March 25th, 2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin Meyers

shouldn't one be able to walk holding the cam and shoot with out the image bouncing all over?

No, I don't think you should expect to be able to do that. Maybe if you're zoomed out to full wide angle though, and really careful with the movement.

OIS is not a substitute for a tripod. At longer focal lengths toward the telephoto end of the zoom, it's really crucial to do your best to hold the camera as steady as possible. OIS will *help* you with that, but you've got to make most of the effort in keeping it steady yourself.

I'll never forget a trade show experience a couple of years ago back in New York when the XL2 was first introduced... I watched a guy pick up the camera, aim it up at the lights, and wave it around wildly in big figure-eight patterns while looking through the viewfinder.

"Hmm," he said, "image stabilization doesn't seem to be working."

Austin Meyers · March 25th, 2007, 12:41 PM

i am doing my best to hold it steady, but you'd think at full wide one should be able to hold the camera (the way it's meant to be held) and have it render useable video.

i'd really like to see some other handheld stuff to see if they are having similar issues before i exchange it for another one. i've got the RMA already and will probably be putting it in the mail tomorrow.

i fully understand that it's a tiny consumer cam, and is just more difficult to steady up. i have no experience with these so i'm just trying to get a gauge on what is considered normal operation for this OIS. worse come to worst i'll just strap a 5lb weight to it.

Ken Ross · March 25th, 2007, 01:49 PM

Austin, there's no camera that will do what you want with the method you're using. That's why people use Steadicams. No point in spending big bucks for a device like that if the camera by itself could do it.....none can. ;)

OIS is designed for small hand motions, not large ones as the result of a typical stride.

Chris Hurd · March 25th, 2007, 02:12 PM

What OIS is really designed for, is to dampen a particular range of motion. Many folks do not understand what that particular range of motion is. It's not just "any" motion, like my example of the trade show guy that I noted above, who waved an XL2 around and wondered why the image moved (which is a completely true story by the way).

OIS is effective only when you're doing your best to hold the camera perfectly still, preferably using both hands. What OIS does is to dampen the range of subtle vibration going into the camera body that's transmitted by your hands and fingers, which is caused by blood coursing through your veins, or similar frequencies such as a slight nervous twitch. Ever try to hold your hands and fingers perfectly still? Notice how it's practically impossible, just by virtue of being alive? That's what OIS is intended to do, to dampen out those particular frequencies of motion... and certainly *not* the motion of actually walking around (that's what SteadiCams and similar stabilizers are for).

Austin Meyers · March 25th, 2007, 02:17 PM

ok so i'm just overly sensitive then... i'm used to dealing with considerably heavier rigs. time to start building some stabilizers... lowe's here i come.

does anyone have the pod? or used one?

http://www.thepod.ca

Dan Peterson · March 25th, 2007, 03:17 PM

Hmm...
Try this clip from my HC7 for comparison. It's handheld while walking, OIS on:

http://media.dvinfo.net/sony/hdrhc7indoor.m2x

Ken Ross · March 25th, 2007, 05:16 PM

Dan, in all due respect, you were walking much slower in a much smaller area, so I don't think the comparison is fair. Two people walking the same path can get very different results hand holding the same camera. Some people are much steadier than others.

In all honestly I don't think there's much difference between the OIS on the Sony and the Canon.

Chris Hurd · March 25th, 2007, 05:53 PM

In fact it's quite possible that the OIS systems in both of these Canon and Sony camcorders are identical, since OIS is a core Canon technology which is commonly licensed to other manufacturers. Sony is one of Canon's biggest customers (and vice versa, as all of the major Japanese corporations typically buy, sell, and trade technologies and components with each other on a constantly ongoing basis).

Matt Buys · March 25th, 2007, 10:19 PM

I shot some footage with the HV20 and an Elura side by side and I came to the conclusion that because the HV20 was so much sharper, you "noticed" jitteryness more. When the picture was grainer with the elura, the jitteryness level was the same but less noticeable. Sort of like noticing a door handle looks old and worn after you repaint a door. Same door handle, bright new vision that brings it into clarity.

Hal Snook · March 26th, 2007, 01:07 AM

So, just to be clear, all of you saying this is in the realm of normal have looked at the footage Austin included in the original post? The weird distortion, and picture jumping abruptly from one frame to the next seem a little strange, especially if he was shooting "with the cam cradled in my hand, set on top of my leg as i was sitting down."

I know that's not a tripod, but he's right, it should produce "usable" footage, which this is not. Unless he's got a twitch he doesn't know about. ;)

As for the *walking* shots, I agree with what others have said.

Michael Barrette · March 26th, 2007, 01:29 AM

This stabalization does look particularly bad. That being said, HDV is just a whole different ball game. It is amazing for the professional, but will make amateur video look more amateur.

It appears you can't walk around with HDV cams like you can with SD ones... I am comparing footage from my FX1 to my TRV900 (sony's) and the TRV 900 (circa 2000) camera footage looks much more stable when I walk around with the camera.. HDV is so sharp it shows a lot more detail, including all the mistakes.... It does appear HDV doesn't have the same kind of versatility for walk arounds as SD. It would be interesting to see a walk around using a HV20 and a stabalizer like merlin or steadicam...

That being said, consumers are probably best suited with an SD handheld imo... very few consumers are going to be setting up shots and most will be doing a lot of walking around hand held... and those images don't cut it...

Austin Meyers · March 26th, 2007, 06:06 AM

still tweaking but check this out.

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/stabilizer1.JPG
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/stabilizer2.JPG
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/stabilizer3.JPG

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20steady.mov

when/if the sun will come out and the rain will stop i'll go outside and try some more stuff. i've got too much crap in this one room apt.

Ron Lemming · March 26th, 2007, 06:15 AM

Even the EIS on my old Sony handycam looks waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than that (clips in the first post). What you get reminds me more of an old cheap Trust digital camera that my neighbour used to have. The distortion shouldn't be there at all and it shouldn't be that jumpy.
If that is the case with all HV20s I will not buy one. I haven't seen that bad results from any other EIS or OIS.

March 25th, 2007, 07:22 AM	#1
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	Image Stabilization Issues? i'm not sure if it's just my unit, or just the form factor i'm not used to, but i have an extremely hard time keeping this cam useably still. shouldn't one be able to walk holding the cam and shoot with out the image bouncing all over? even walking cradling the cam with both hands i can't get a useable image. some samples of things that bother me. notice the warping of some frames, and what appears to be the OIS jumping around. all of these shots were shot hand held, although most were shot with the cam cradled in my hand, set on top of my leg as i was sitting down. http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv2...ues%20720p.mov am i too sensitive or does it seem like the OIS isn't helping/maybe even hurting? i have an xl1s and a canon tele eos lens with ois, and i have no problems with those. anybody else got any footage where they're moving with this cam? thanks __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 25th, 2007, 11:30 AM	#2
Mike Dulay Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Somerville, NJ Posts: 304	The jumpiness of the image reminds me of those cheap MPEG4 digicamcorders. I also get those if I reused the same MiniDV tape more than once in my Canon Elura / ZR200. Just a guess. Maybe issue writing to tape? __________________ DIY, 35mm, HV20: http://www.primitivebuteffective.net

March 25th, 2007, 12:41 PM	#4
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	stability i am doing my best to hold it steady, but you'd think at full wide one should be able to hold the camera (the way it's meant to be held) and have it render useable video. i'd really like to see some other handheld stuff to see if they are having similar issues before i exchange it for another one. i've got the RMA already and will probably be putting it in the mail tomorrow. i fully understand that it's a tiny consumer cam, and is just more difficult to steady up. i have no experience with these so i'm just trying to get a gauge on what is considered normal operation for this OIS. worse come to worst i'll just strap a 5lb weight to it. __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 25th, 2007, 02:12 PM	#6
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	What OIS is really designed for, is to dampen a particular range of motion. Many folks do not understand what that particular range of motion is. It's not just "any" motion, like my example of the trade show guy that I noted above, who waved an XL2 around and wondered why the image moved (which is a completely true story by the way). OIS is effective only when you're doing your best to hold the camera perfectly still, preferably using both hands. What OIS does is to dampen the range of subtle vibration going into the camera body that's transmitted by your hands and fingers, which is caused by blood coursing through your veins, or similar frequencies such as a slight nervous twitch. Ever try to hold your hands and fingers perfectly still? Notice how it's practically impossible, just by virtue of being alive? That's what OIS is intended to do, to dampen out those particular frequencies of motion... and certainly not the motion of actually walking around (that's what SteadiCams and similar stabilizers are for). __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 25th, 2007, 02:17 PM	#7
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	stability ok so i'm just overly sensitive then... i'm used to dealing with considerably heavier rigs. time to start building some stabilizers... lowe's here i come. does anyone have the pod? or used one? http://www.thepod.ca __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 25th, 2007, 01:49 PM	#5
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Austin, there's no camera that will do what you want with the method you're using. That's why people use Steadicams. No point in spending big bucks for a device like that if the camera by itself could do it.....none can. ;) OIS is designed for small hand motions, not large ones as the result of a typical stride.

March 25th, 2007, 03:17 PM	#8
Dan Peterson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 61	Hmm... Try this clip from my HC7 for comparison. It's handheld while walking, OIS on: http://media.dvinfo.net/sony/hdrhc7indoor.m2x

March 25th, 2007, 05:16 PM	#9
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Dan, in all due respect, you were walking much slower in a much smaller area, so I don't think the comparison is fair. Two people walking the same path can get very different results hand holding the same camera. Some people are much steadier than others. In all honestly I don't think there's much difference between the OIS on the Sony and the Canon.

March 25th, 2007, 05:53 PM	#10
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	In fact it's quite possible that the OIS systems in both of these Canon and Sony camcorders are identical, since OIS is a core Canon technology which is commonly licensed to other manufacturers. Sony is one of Canon's biggest customers (and vice versa, as all of the major Japanese corporations typically buy, sell, and trade technologies and components with each other on a constantly ongoing basis). __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 25th, 2007, 10:19 PM	#11
Matt Buys Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Asheville NC Posts: 426	I shot some footage with the HV20 and an Elura side by side and I came to the conclusion that because the HV20 was so much sharper, you "noticed" jitteryness more. When the picture was grainer with the elura, the jitteryness level was the same but less noticeable. Sort of like noticing a door handle looks old and worn after you repaint a door. Same door handle, bright new vision that brings it into clarity.

March 26th, 2007, 01:07 AM	#12
Hal Snook Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New York, NY Posts: 41	So, just to be clear, all of you saying this is in the realm of normal have looked at the footage Austin included in the original post? The weird distortion, and picture jumping abruptly from one frame to the next seem a little strange, especially if he was shooting "with the cam cradled in my hand, set on top of my leg as i was sitting down." I know that's not a tripod, but he's right, it should produce "usable" footage, which this is not. Unless he's got a twitch he doesn't know about. ;) As for the walking shots, I agree with what others have said.

March 26th, 2007, 01:29 AM	#13
Michael Barrette Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: calgary, Canada Posts: 48	This stabalization does look particularly bad. That being said, HDV is just a whole different ball game. It is amazing for the professional, but will make amateur video look more amateur. It appears you can't walk around with HDV cams like you can with SD ones... I am comparing footage from my FX1 to my TRV900 (sony's) and the TRV 900 (circa 2000) camera footage looks much more stable when I walk around with the camera.. HDV is so sharp it shows a lot more detail, including all the mistakes.... It does appear HDV doesn't have the same kind of versatility for walk arounds as SD. It would be interesting to see a walk around using a HV20 and a stabalizer like merlin or steadicam... That being said, consumers are probably best suited with an SD handheld imo... very few consumers are going to be setting up shots and most will be doing a lot of walking around hand held... and those images don't cut it... Last edited by Michael Barrette; March 26th, 2007 at 03:02 AM.

March 26th, 2007, 06:06 AM	#14
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	steadish still tweaking but check this out. http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/stabilizer1.JPG http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/stabilizer2.JPG http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/stabilizer3.JPG http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20steady.mov when/if the sun will come out and the rain will stop i'll go outside and try some more stuff. i've got too much crap in this one room apt. __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 26th, 2007, 06:15 AM	#15
Ron Lemming Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 46	Even the EIS on my old Sony handycam looks waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than that (clips in the first post). What you get reminds me more of an old cheap Trust digital camera that my neighbour used to have. The distortion shouldn't be there at all and it shouldn't be that jumpy. If that is the case with all HV20s I will not buy one. I haven't seen that bad results from any other EIS or OIS.