HV20 1440x1080 or 1920x1080? at DVinfo.net

Rune Austefjord · March 22nd, 2007, 12:45 PM

I read somewhere that the HV20 was the first consumer camcorder to record in full 1920x1080 resolution.

My reaction then is that this is still a HDV camera, and HDV specifies 1440x1080 anamorphic (1.33) 16x9 aspect recording.
So am I correct in my assumption, or does the HV20 exceed the HDV specification by recording 1920x1080 to tape?

If not, and they actually meant it has a 1920x1080 sensor, then in reality the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor, allthough it still record that resolution to tape as 1440x1080 anamorphic 16x9.

Bruce Allen · March 22nd, 2007, 01:38 PM

I'm pretty sure it records at 1440x1080.

The big question is the HDMI / component outputs - there are currently 2 schools of thought:

1. The footage hits the sensor at 1920, is squashed to 1440, sharpened, white-balanced, etc, then re-blown-up to 1920 for HDMI

2. The footage hits the sensor at 1920 is sharpened, white-balanced, etc at 1920 then sent out to HDMI or the HDV compression (which involves 1440 squash)

Although common sense would suggest #2, tests on previous HDMI output-capable cameras suggest that it might actually do #1.

Anyone want to post a res chart test of HDV vs Component vs HDMI? Even just HDV vs Component or just HDV vs HDMI would be good...

You can host the raw files on my site and I will send you several beers for your trouble. Seriously. Email / PM me!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Chris Hurd · March 22nd, 2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune Austefjord

I read somewhere that the HV20 was the first consumer camcorder to record in full 1920x1080 resolution.

No -- that is not correct.

Quote:

...the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor, allthough it still record that resolution to tape as 1440x1080 anamorphic 16x9.

Yes -- that is correct.

Hope this helps,

Daymon Hoffman · March 22nd, 2007, 09:44 PM

To backup what Bruce said. I'll send some beers as well for the testers to find out what its doing via HDMI output. :D

Robert Ducon · March 22nd, 2007, 10:24 PM

... and related to bruce and Daymon's, a test between Component (to see if it's res is full 16:9 or 4:3 scaled up) would be great too! I would/will test this (component capture) when my HV20 arrives, but alas, no res chart to toy with.

Mikko Lopponen · March 23rd, 2007, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

No -- that is not correct.

Yes -- that is correct.

Hope this helps,

No, that is not correct either. The HC1 has a 1920x1440 sensor.

Chris Hurd · March 23rd, 2007, 08:15 AM

Hi Mikko, I'm not sure why you're quoting me, or for that matter why you're mentioning the HC1 at 1440. Rune's statement was "the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor" and yes that is correct.

Mikko Lopponen · April 1st, 2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Rune's statement was "the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor" and yes that is correct.

No its not. The hc1 has the same sensor as the A1 and the sensor is in fact a 1920x1440 sensor. The top and bottom are cropped off to get the 1920x1080.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...Model?id=80897

Ken Ross · April 1st, 2007, 05:09 PM

Mikko, the sensor is not a native 1920X1080 sensor.

Jeff DeMaagd · April 1st, 2007, 08:39 PM

Now that I look through the flyer PDF* on Canon's site, I'm not convinced that the HV20's sensor is a "true" 1920x1080 sensor either. It says that it uses the same sensor is used for still shots, and that the sensor is 3.1 megapixels. I would think that a true 1920x1080 sensor would be just under 2.1 megapixels. More marketing shenanigans, I guess.

* http://downloads.canon.com/cpr/softw...r_Friendly.pdf

Salah Baker · April 2nd, 2007, 03:49 AM

"capable of capturing stunning 3.1 Megapixel photos in 4:3 aspect ratio to a miniSDTM card (2.07 Megapixels at 16:9)"

"The same 2.96 Megapixel CMOS image sensor that ensures sharp, vivid HD video...."

"the HV20's image sensor results in outstanding digital photographs. It gives an impressive resolution of 1920 x 1440.."

Wes Vasher · April 2nd, 2007, 06:52 AM

The HV20 crops the sensor for video. It's true 1920x1080 for video but the sensor has more pixels above and below what you see for video. Below is an image that details the different still and video modes, I left off the lower resolution still modes...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/4...541ff496_o.jpg

This image shows exactly what is being cropped...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/4...e2378eab_b.jpg

The question I have is the large still mode is 2048 pixels across and for video there is no horizontal cropping as illustrated in the image above, so if the sensor is really 2048 pixels wide then the camera is scaling that down to 1920 for the 1920x1080 still mode as well as the video. Or if the sensor is 1920 wide then it is scaling up for the large still mode. Canon's site states the 4:3 still mode has an effective 2,760,000 pixels which equals 1920x1440 so perhaps the sensor is 1920x1440 and it scales it up for the higher resolution still mode.

Mikko Lopponen · April 3rd, 2007, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Mikko, the sensor is not a native 1920X1080 sensor.

Yes it is. If you have a 1920x1440 sensor (4:3) then when you crop the top and bottom it will in all practical issues be a native 1920x1080 image. And the hv10 uses the exact same practice of cropping the cmos sensor.

So the hc1 was the first camera. Canons marketing about "first true" 1920x1080 always felt wrong.

They crop the cmos sensor because of the rolling shutter effect. If the image would utilize the complete sensor then the rolling shutter effect would be way more noticeable as you would see the top part of the image go way before the lower part. Also cropping is the easy way to get true 16:9.

Jeff DeMaagd · April 3rd, 2007, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lopponen

So the hc1 was the first camera. Canons marketing about "first true" 1920x1080 always felt wrong.

I don't remember how they handled it, but it did seem to give a false impression about the cameras because people assumed that it meant that it recorded that resolution.

Alan Dunkel · April 3rd, 2007, 08:03 AM

...sure seems to be using a 1920 X 1080p cropping of the sensor and from my understanding that full data matrix is available for the HDMI out, but IMHO pixels smixels the image just looks great. Am looking forward to seeing someone's keying results from HDMI in the future. Could be a great addition for color correction in post too for certain looks, but I'm very happy with the HDV myself and tape is easy to handle and store. Don't think too many ( any? ) camera/lens combinations acheive their theoretical sensor resolutions in real world optical lines of resolution, but the HV20 manages to get enough in for outstanding color rich results. I can't wait to project some footage at 1080P on a 20 foot screen and see how it holds up, but looks top notch at 720P on a 90" screen from my Sanyo projector.
Regards, Alan

March 22nd, 2007, 09:44 PM	#4
Daymon Hoffman Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 267	To backup what Bruce said. I'll send some beers as well for the testers to find out what its doing via HDMI output. :D __________________ Welcome... to the real world!

March 22nd, 2007, 10:24 PM	#5
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	... and related to bruce and Daymon's, a test between Component (to see if it's res is full 16:9 or 4:3 scaled up) would be great too! I would/will test this (component capture) when my HV20 arrives, but alas, no res chart to toy with. __________________ Mac + Canon HV20

March 23rd, 2007, 08:15 AM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Hi Mikko, I'm not sure why you're quoting me, or for that matter why you're mentioning the HC1 at 1440. Rune's statement was "the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor" and yes that is correct. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 3rd, 2007, 08:03 AM	#15
Alan Dunkel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 59	1920 X 1080p from HDMI on the sensor... ...sure seems to be using a 1920 X 1080p cropping of the sensor and from my understanding that full data matrix is available for the HDMI out, but IMHO pixels smixels the image just looks great. Am looking forward to seeing someone's keying results from HDMI in the future. Could be a great addition for color correction in post too for certain looks, but I'm very happy with the HDV myself and tape is easy to handle and store. Don't think too many ( any? ) camera/lens combinations acheive their theoretical sensor resolutions in real world optical lines of resolution, but the HV20 manages to get enough in for outstanding color rich results. I can't wait to project some footage at 1080P on a 20 foot screen and see how it holds up, but looks top notch at 720P on a 90" screen from my Sanyo projector. Regards, Alan

March 22nd, 2007, 12:45 PM	#1
Rune Austefjord Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 43	HV20 1440x1080 or 1920x1080? I read somewhere that the HV20 was the first consumer camcorder to record in full 1920x1080 resolution. My reaction then is that this is still a HDV camera, and HDV specifies 1440x1080 anamorphic (1.33) 16x9 aspect recording. So am I correct in my assumption, or does the HV20 exceed the HDV specification by recording 1920x1080 to tape? If not, and they actually meant it has a 1920x1080 sensor, then in reality the HV10 was the first consumer camcorder with a 1920x1080 sensor, allthough it still record that resolution to tape as 1440x1080 anamorphic 16x9.

March 22nd, 2007, 01:38 PM	#2
Bruce Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 43	I'm pretty sure it records at 1440x1080. The big question is the HDMI / component outputs - there are currently 2 schools of thought: 1. The footage hits the sensor at 1920, is squashed to 1440, sharpened, white-balanced, etc, then re-blown-up to 1920 for HDMI 2. The footage hits the sensor at 1920 is sharpened, white-balanced, etc at 1920 then sent out to HDMI or the HDV compression (which involves 1440 squash) Although common sense would suggest #2, tests on previous HDMI output-capable cameras suggest that it might actually do #1. Anyone want to post a res chart test of HDV vs Component vs HDMI? Even just HDV vs Component or just HDV vs HDMI would be good... You can host the raw files on my site and I will send you several beers for your trouble. Seriously. Email / PM me! Bruce Allen www.boacinema.com

April 1st, 2007, 05:09 PM	#9
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Mikko, the sensor is not a native 1920X1080 sensor.

April 1st, 2007, 08:39 PM	#10
Jeff DeMaagd Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, MI, USA Posts: 202	Now that I look through the flyer PDF* on Canon's site, I'm not convinced that the HV20's sensor is a "true" 1920x1080 sensor either. It says that it uses the same sensor is used for still shots, and that the sensor is 3.1 megapixels. I would think that a true 1920x1080 sensor would be just under 2.1 megapixels. More marketing shenanigans, I guess. * http://downloads.canon.com/cpr/softw...r_Friendly.pdf

April 2nd, 2007, 03:49 AM	#11
Salah Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Patterson La. Posts: 207	"capable of capturing stunning 3.1 Megapixel photos in 4:3 aspect ratio to a miniSDTM card (2.07 Megapixels at 16:9)" "The same 2.96 Megapixel CMOS image sensor that ensures sharp, vivid HD video...." "the HV20's image sensor results in outstanding digital photographs. It gives an impressive resolution of 1920 x 1440.."

April 2nd, 2007, 06:52 AM	#12
Wes Vasher Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 440	The HV20 crops the sensor for video. It's true 1920x1080 for video but the sensor has more pixels above and below what you see for video. Below is an image that details the different still and video modes, I left off the lower resolution still modes... http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/4...541ff496_o.jpg This image shows exactly what is being cropped... http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/4...e2378eab_b.jpg The question I have is the large still mode is 2048 pixels across and for video there is no horizontal cropping as illustrated in the image above, so if the sensor is really 2048 pixels wide then the camera is scaling that down to 1920 for the 1920x1080 still mode as well as the video. Or if the sensor is 1920 wide then it is scaling up for the large still mode. Canon's site states the 4:3 still mode has an effective 2,760,000 pixels which equals 1920x1440 so perhaps the sensor is 1920x1440 and it scales it up for the higher resolution still mode.