HV20

Oki Russell · March 6th, 2007, 05:29 AM

I am considering buying HV20. The progressive image acquisition mode sounds like a great advantage to me. But I am a bit confused, because the HV20 Manual says the "video shot with the [ HDV (PF24)] standard will be recorded on the tape as 60i" anyway. So, what's the worth?

Would appreciate your comments.

Ron Lemming · March 6th, 2007, 05:33 AM

I will say again what I said in this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87445

You will be able to play it back in other cameras like you always do with 24p.
24f on the other hand can only be played back by 4 (soon 5) of Canon's own cameras - the HV10, XL H1, XH A1 and XH G1 (soon also the HV20).

The once oh so popular Panasonic AG-DVX100 and Canon XL2 also carries 24p within 60i.

Oki Russell · March 6th, 2007, 05:44 AM

Thanks for your explanation.

What I am warried about is if these all signal conversions may add much noise to the output picture?

Ron Lemming · March 6th, 2007, 07:41 AM

Maybe I have missed something but I don't know of any video camera that puts out 24p as 24p. The image is still progressive since there are no fields to begin with in progressive mode. When you are seeing a progressive image within an interlaced signal on a tv, it's like you are seeing the same image twice every second. I think that's the case with PAL (50i/25p) anyway. NTSC 60i/24p needs some kind of pulldown since 60/24 is not an even number. I never had to worry about that since I'm in a PAL country. Someone else might give you more information about that.

Nevertheless, the DVX100 and XL2 seem to do fine anyway. We have yet to see more images from the HV20 but I don't think the fact that it's 24p is embedded in a 60i signal is going to add any noise. The noise comes from other factors. Don't take my word for it but I think that cameras with native progressive sensors (like the DVX100, XL2 and HV20) are more noisy in the progressive mode than they are in interlaced mode. I think it has to do with the way the sensor "sees" less light since it only grabs information from the sensors 24/25 times a second instead of 60/50 times.

There has been some discussion about the 24/25f-mode on the XL H1, XH A1 and XH G1 cameras. The sensors in those cameras are interlaced and therefore they grab information from the sensors 60/50 times a second and then the camera does some sort of fancy deinterlacing to make it into a progressive picture, and therefore it's progressive picture might be brighter and less noisy than the progressive picture from cameras with native progressive sensors.

I'm way over my head with all this tech talk so I hope that someone with more technical knowledge than me will be kind enough to either confirm or correct this. :)

Bruce Allen · March 6th, 2007, 03:15 PM

Seems pretty good, Ron! Except I think that some of the newer interlaced cams that also do progressive (Canon A1, for example?) now clock themselves as 48 instead of 60, eliminating that nasty uneven motion thing. For Europe though you are right.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Pieter Jongerius · March 6th, 2007, 04:07 PM

I found this text very helpful. In a way, it explains how 24p gets to be 60i.

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guid...h/video2_2.htm

Also wikipedia has tons of stuff on this.

Lee Wilson · March 7th, 2007, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Lemming

When you are seeing a progressive image within an interlaced signal on a tv, it's like you are seeing the same image twice every second.

Not quite !

The two fields (images) are not the same they differ spatially but not temporally.

That is: they are both captured from the same point in time (unlike interlaced footage) and each field is a unique spatial recording.

Thomas Smet · March 7th, 2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Lemming

Maybe I have missed something but I don't know of any video camera that puts out 24p as 24p.. :)

The JVC HD series of cameras records 24p as 24p. The higher end Canon cameras also record 24 frames when using 24F. It is the camera that adds the pulldown when playing back. The footage on the tape however is 24p. 24p DVD's are also 24 fps. There are flags set that tell a DVD player to mix it all up as fields with 3:2 pulldown so the DVD will work on any TV.

Some other cameras such as the SONY V1 record as 60i but there are flags set so a NLE will be able to pull out the 24p.

It is correct that 24p on the HV20 is really no different then 24p on the Panasonic DVX100 or the Canon XL2. DV cannot have flags so the only way to do it is to record as 60i with pulldown. The HV20 while giving us the chance to have 24p recording does not make it as easy to edit the 24p. It will be up to the capture or editing software we use to figure out how to remove the pulldown to create the 24p. I know Cineform is very good at doing this on the fly and Apple has tools to remove the pulldown after it is captured.

Capturing through HDMI isn't any different. In fact all cameras which use Component/HD-SDI/HDMI to capture end up putting out only 60i or 60p so software has to be used to remove the pulldown. This is true for even the cameras which do record 24p to tape. The first lower cost camera to actually send a true 24p through HD-SDI is the JVC HD-250 because it uses the Panasonic style of repeat frame flags used in the Varicam camera.

Billy Fatay · March 7th, 2007, 10:40 AM

If I plan on reversing pulldown with Cinema Tools, how big a difference is there between originally capturing the 60i (24p with pulldown) footage through HDMI versus HDV?

I assume that the HV20 captures 24p, then performs the pulldown process, and then compresses it to HDV. So, the reverse pulldown process in Cinema Tools seems like it would be less exact on the HDV footage than on raw HDMI footage.

Is this a big deal?

Ron Lemming · March 7th, 2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

The higher end Canon cameras also record 24 frames when using 24F.

I knew about the Canons, but I was thinking 24p, not 24f. :) You are absolutely right though, 24f is put out as progressive. I did not know that the JVCs put out 24p as 24p however. One learns something new everyday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

DV cannot have flags so the only way to do it is to record as 60i with pulldown. The HV20 while giving us the chance to have 24p recording does not make it as easy to edit the 24p. It will be up to the capture or editing software we use to figure out how to remove the pulldown to create the 24p. I know Cineform is very good at doing this on the fly and Apple has tools to remove the pulldown after it is captured.

Sometimes it's good to live in a PAL country. ;)

Elliot Steele · March 7th, 2007, 01:04 PM

If I have a PAL HV20, will I be getting full non-interlaced frames once the footage is in the computer?
It would (will?) be great to be able to pull any frame out of the hdv stream to use as a still.

Pieter Jongerius · March 7th, 2007, 01:58 PM

Hi Elliot, very likely. Although the semantics of a 50i vs 25p are of course different, so NLE packages might take a different approach. You should in any case avoid regular de-interlacing such as blending the fields.

Ron, I always felt priviliged in PAL land, because of the much higher resolution than NTSC. With HD however, we're just stuck with the lower "field-rate" :(

Billy, funny, never thought of that. The pulldown might even make the MPEG2 motion detection much more difficult? However, I don't think its a big deal, considering I haven't really seen any obtrusive MPEG2 artifacts on any of the sample footage posted here.

Lee Wilson · March 8th, 2007, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pieter Jongerius

Ron, I always felt priviliged in PAL land, because of the much higher resolution than NTSC. With HD however, we're just stuck with the lower "field-rate" :(

Lower field rate (or frame rate) but better compression.

HDV = 25Mbps for both NTSC and PAL.

Therefore:

NTSC has a higher frame rate but each frame is more compressed.
PAL has a lower frame rate but each frame is less compressed.

Lee Wilson · March 8th, 2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliot Steele

If I have a PAL HV20, will I be getting full non-interlaced frames once the footage is in the computer?

Yes. :)

.

.

.

Thomas Smet · March 8th, 2007, 07:48 PM

With PAL 25p from the HV20 you do have to be carefull how it is dealt with in your NLE. To us the video looks progressive but to a NLE the video will look like interlaced video and it will process it in that way.

Any animated effects you may add in that timeline such as moving titles or any type of a wipe will end up rendering as 50i. This may make your final video look a little funky because the video will be progressive but the stuff added will be interlaced.

You will have to trick your NLE into thinking the video actually is progressive and use a 25p timeline. This way everything should work out fine. The methods used to adjust the timeline properties are different for every NLE.

The same is true for 24p editing from the HV20. If you edit the 60i in a 60i timeline any effects you create will be rendered as 60i and not 24p with 3:2 pulldown. Lucky for us goofy NTSC users we end up having to use a 24p timeline anyway so everything 24p renders correctly. By the time we process the 24p out of the 60i file we don't really have to worry anymore unless we want to add the pulldown back in to record back to tape.

March 6th, 2007, 05:29 AM	#1
Oki Russell New Boot Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 16	HV20 - Progressive mode recording I am considering buying HV20. The progressive image acquisition mode sounds like a great advantage to me. But I am a bit confused, because the HV20 Manual says the "video shot with the [ HDV (PF24)] standard will be recorded on the tape as 60i" anyway. So, what's the worth? Would appreciate your comments.

March 6th, 2007, 05:33 AM	#2
Ron Lemming Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 46	I will say again what I said in this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87445 You will be able to play it back in other cameras like you always do with 24p. 24f on the other hand can only be played back by 4 (soon 5) of Canon's own cameras - the HV10, XL H1, XH A1 and XH G1 (soon also the HV20). The once oh so popular Panasonic AG-DVX100 and Canon XL2 also carries 24p within 60i.

March 6th, 2007, 05:44 AM	#3
Oki Russell New Boot Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 16	Thanks for your explanation. What I am warried about is if these all signal conversions may add much noise to the output picture?

March 6th, 2007, 07:41 AM	#4
Ron Lemming Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 46	Maybe I have missed something but I don't know of any video camera that puts out 24p as 24p. The image is still progressive since there are no fields to begin with in progressive mode. When you are seeing a progressive image within an interlaced signal on a tv, it's like you are seeing the same image twice every second. I think that's the case with PAL (50i/25p) anyway. NTSC 60i/24p needs some kind of pulldown since 60/24 is not an even number. I never had to worry about that since I'm in a PAL country. Someone else might give you more information about that. Nevertheless, the DVX100 and XL2 seem to do fine anyway. We have yet to see more images from the HV20 but I don't think the fact that it's 24p is embedded in a 60i signal is going to add any noise. The noise comes from other factors. Don't take my word for it but I think that cameras with native progressive sensors (like the DVX100, XL2 and HV20) are more noisy in the progressive mode than they are in interlaced mode. I think it has to do with the way the sensor "sees" less light since it only grabs information from the sensors 24/25 times a second instead of 60/50 times. There has been some discussion about the 24/25f-mode on the XL H1, XH A1 and XH G1 cameras. The sensors in those cameras are interlaced and therefore they grab information from the sensors 60/50 times a second and then the camera does some sort of fancy deinterlacing to make it into a progressive picture, and therefore it's progressive picture might be brighter and less noisy than the progressive picture from cameras with native progressive sensors. I'm way over my head with all this tech talk so I hope that someone with more technical knowledge than me will be kind enough to either confirm or correct this. :)

March 6th, 2007, 03:15 PM	#5
Bruce Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 43	Seems pretty good, Ron! Except I think that some of the newer interlaced cams that also do progressive (Canon A1, for example?) now clock themselves as 48 instead of 60, eliminating that nasty uneven motion thing. For Europe though you are right. Bruce Allen www.boacinema.com

March 6th, 2007, 04:07 PM	#6
Pieter Jongerius Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 101	I found this text very helpful. In a way, it explains how 24p gets to be 60i. http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guid...h/video2_2.htm Also wikipedia has tons of stuff on this.

March 7th, 2007, 10:40 AM	#9
Billy Fatay New Boot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 5	If I plan on reversing pulldown with Cinema Tools, how big a difference is there between originally capturing the 60i (24p with pulldown) footage through HDMI versus HDV? I assume that the HV20 captures 24p, then performs the pulldown process, and then compresses it to HDV. So, the reverse pulldown process in Cinema Tools seems like it would be less exact on the HDV footage than on raw HDMI footage. Is this a big deal?

March 7th, 2007, 01:04 PM	#11
Elliot Steele Tourist Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Gaimersheim, Germany Posts: 3	If I have a PAL HV20, will I be getting full non-interlaced frames once the footage is in the computer? It would (will?) be great to be able to pull any frame out of the hdv stream to use as a still.

March 7th, 2007, 01:58 PM	#12
Pieter Jongerius Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 101	Hi Elliot, very likely. Although the semantics of a 50i vs 25p are of course different, so NLE packages might take a different approach. You should in any case avoid regular de-interlacing such as blending the fields. Ron, I always felt priviliged in PAL land, because of the much higher resolution than NTSC. With HD however, we're just stuck with the lower "field-rate" :( Billy, funny, never thought of that. The pulldown might even make the MPEG2 motion detection much more difficult? However, I don't think its a big deal, considering I haven't really seen any obtrusive MPEG2 artifacts on any of the sample footage posted here.

March 8th, 2007, 07:48 PM	#15
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	With PAL 25p from the HV20 you do have to be carefull how it is dealt with in your NLE. To us the video looks progressive but to a NLE the video will look like interlaced video and it will process it in that way. Any animated effects you may add in that timeline such as moving titles or any type of a wipe will end up rendering as 50i. This may make your final video look a little funky because the video will be progressive but the stuff added will be interlaced. You will have to trick your NLE into thinking the video actually is progressive and use a 25p timeline. This way everything should work out fine. The methods used to adjust the timeline properties are different for every NLE. The same is true for 24p editing from the HV20. If you edit the 60i in a 60i timeline any effects you create will be rendered as 60i and not 24p with 3:2 pulldown. Lucky for us goofy NTSC users we end up having to use a 24p timeline anyway so everything 24p renders correctly. By the time we process the 24p out of the 60i file we don't really have to worry anymore unless we want to add the pulldown back in to record back to tape.