NTSC v PAL HV20? at DVinfo.net

Fergus Anderson · February 13th, 2007, 10:54 AM

Hi all

Well I currently have a PAL HV10 and love it but will be upgrading to the HV20 in April. I am just wondering whether to buy another PAL 50hz model or this time to import an NTSC 60Hz cam? I know there are issues with stip lights etc using 60hz cams in Europe but I'm thinking about the US model for the following benefits:

1) 24p rather than having to slow down 25p. Is there any benefit of 25p over 24p? If 25p doesnt need to use 3:2 pulldown is that better?

2) Currently only 60hz HDV material can be played natively on HD-DVD players

3) Flatscreen monitors mainly operate at 60hz. I currently have a Sony FW900 CRT which is great because I can selecet the refresh rate (mainly use 75 or 100hz), however, if I want to upgrade to a LCD monitor it will operate at 60hz. Playing back 50hz HDV on a 60hz monitor will cause judder?

4) Slow mo will look better in vegas etc when going from 60i to 24p than 50i to 25p

5) It might be cheaper to import (dollar Xchange rate)

6) Even in the UK most LCD televisions at 1080p operate at 60hz more frequently than 50hz. 60hz is also more common on Plasma screens.

Disadvantages I can think of:

1) Issues with strip lighting

2) Warranty issues buying abroad

3) Import tax

Any comments, corrections or additions to the above would be welcomed

Cheers
Fergus

Andrew King · February 13th, 2007, 03:54 PM

I live in PAL lands, but might favour a 24p version of the HV20. I owned one of the first DV cameras JVC GRDV1 as an NTSC model in 1997 (flew back to UK from Japan), and had little trouble with 50Hz lighting - I remember it used to sync itself quickly in if there was any 'flicker' - and then I would shoot.

A recent look at video projectors on sale yielded more support for 24p than 25p.
FCP seems to be able to handle 24p in the 60i stream (I don't know how other NLEs are handling this or 25p).
The CMOS chip has yielded progressive 24p successfully, but I don't think that the 25p has yielded that yet from what I read about the Sony HVR V1. Are they similar chips?
Reading up that it is overall easier to make 24p go to 60Hz delivery (as delivered already in the camera), and also to convert to 25p (with the usual 'movie' speed-up that all PAL land viewers are used to!).

So does 24p solve all PAL land's criteria? I am beginning to think so. Any thoughts from anyone else would be very welcome too.

Pieter Jongerius · February 13th, 2007, 06:12 PM

Actually a pretty refreshing idea... couple of thoughts&questions:

1 - I guess 25p in 50i saves you the inverse telecine step of 24p in 60i, thats all. Maybe a slight render load decrease.
4 - Yes, but at the other hand the MPEG2 compression at 50hz just might have higher bytes-per-frame, because of the fixed HDV bitrate of 25Mbs. (and thus less compression artifacts)
6 - are you sure about LCD television sets that produce images at 60hz in Europe, while they operate at 50Hz AC and will primarily have to produce 50i SD video when watching TV? It would raise questions indeed...

Possible minor disadvantage:
- you may need an AC converter from 110V up to 220V for the recharger.

Edit: from Jack's post at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=86361 I gather that AC voltage should not be a problem.

Lee Wilson · February 13th, 2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus Anderson

1) 24p rather than having to slow down 25p.

Why would you want to slow 25p ?

Fergus Anderson · February 14th, 2007, 06:10 AM

Thanks chaps

Good point about the 25mbs compression at 50hz being potentially better than 60hz

I have been looking at some 1080p LCD's in the UK and it seems they can handle 1920x1080 @60hz more commonly than 50hz. Equally many monitors are set at 60hz such at the dell 24, 27 and 30 inch models.

Lee - I guess the only benefit of 24p over 25p is for film out / film look but I do take you point that 25p has one extra frame of information every second. Ideally 50 or 60p would be an option!

Thomas Smet · February 14th, 2007, 09:44 AM

Sorry for the delay.

1. 25p is much much easier to deal with because it just sits inside of a normal 50i HDV stream with the HV20. That means not only will it work no problem in any NLE that supports 50i HDV but you will not have to remove the pulldown in order to edit the progressive frames. All you have to do is capture the 25p and edit it in a 50i timeline and you are pretty much good to go. With 24p you have to use special software to remove the pulldown frames in order to edit the true 24p.

2. 24p will not playback very well on your 50i TV. If you want to watch what you shot you will be out of luck here. The only way you will be able to watch the 60i signal is to hook it up to your computer. Some HDTV's may support both 60i and 50i but I'm not sure on that one. I do know however that if you want to watch your video downconverted in camera to a SD TV you will be out of luck.

3. Hollywood DVD's in PAL regions are encoded as 25p and sped up. So if your plans are a progressive DVD then you will want to keep it as 25p anyways. If you shoot 24p you will end up having to speed it up to fit it in as 25p anyways so it serves little point. Many people have shot movies as 25p and shifted to 24p if they really did get a chance for a film out. Virtually nobody on the planet could ever tell.

4. Editing. In PAL regions if you have a NLE that has a monitor out such as the Intensity card or a down converted SD output live while you edit you will wish you had 25p. 24p will not be able to be converted to 25p on the fly to work with the hardware.

5. If you ever need to shoot 50i for PAL regions with a 60i camera you will not be able to. Your only option would be to shoot 24p and process the video to 25p. Some clients may not want 25p and may prefer 50i or 50p.

Lee Wilson · February 14th, 2007, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus Anderson

Lee - I guess the only benefit of 24p over 25p is for film out / film look but I do take you point that 25p has one extra frame of information every second. Ideally 50 or 60p would be an option!

Are you planning to output to film ?

Most people simply slow the 25fps down to 24fps for film output.

Would you notice after watching a film for 24 minutes in the cinema that the specific scene you are looking at - happened around 25 minutes when you watched it on TV ?

Fergus Anderson · February 15th, 2007, 03:57 AM

Thanks guys

Well taking into consideration the preferability of 25p editing ina 50i timeline and given the extra frame per second perhaps 25p should be considered a plus. There are still the issues with HDV playback on HD-DVD players, PC monitors (60hz), slow mo and the cheaper cost of the 60hz model. I think that the issue with 1080p LCD's might be overstated since I have since discovered some that will accept 1080p at 50hz

Lee Wilson · February 15th, 2007, 04:46 AM

[/quote]I think that the issue with 1080p LCD's might be overstated since I have since discovered some that will accept 1080p at 50hz[/QUOTE]

As our (UK) power supply is 50hz won't most LCDs sold in the UK cycle at 50hz ?

Fergus Anderson · February 15th, 2007, 05:04 AM

yes but people on avforums seem to think that 1080p TV's might not necessarily accept a 1080-25p signal. I wonder though as the 25p HDV will be within a 50i stream?

Lee Wilson · February 15th, 2007, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus Anderson

yes but people on avforums seem to think that 1080p TV's might not necessarily accept a 1080-25p signal. I wonder though as the 25p HDV will be within a 50i stream?

To be honest I don't know too much about this kind of thing, but it seems odd that LCD manufacturers would not make there European model 50hz ?

Thomas Smet · February 15th, 2007, 08:58 AM

Even if it is 60hz we have the same problem with 24p on a 60hz display. 24p doesn't refresh as well in 60hz which is why we are starting to see HDTV's that run at a 120hz. 120hz can divide 24p and 60p equally into whole numbers for a much better look. So regardless if you have a 50zh display or a 60hz display 24p will not look as smooth. Now if the displays over are 50hz then 25p should look great.

As for the extra frame it doesn't matter. That one extra frame per second isn't even noticed. No human can detect it that I know of. The only thing people can ever detect between 24p and 25p is the slight audio pitch shift. Of course you could use time compression on the audio track then the pitch wouldn't change.

As I see it there is very little to no reason to use a 24p camera in a 25p region. I see no advantage at all other then cost. Are you sure however that the cost difference isn't being reflected in the currancy exchange? I would think shipping a 24p camera would offset any cost difference anyway, unless you know a local place that happens to sell NTSC models. Even then I would think their importing and stocking fees for a camera that wouldn't sell as well as the 25p model would actually make it cost more. I know here in the US the PAL models usually cost a lot more then the NTSC ones mainly due to importing costs and low sales numbers.

Pieter Jongerius · February 15th, 2007, 02:00 PM

On the cost: in Holland the price will probably be around 1300 Euros, a little over $1700. I guess that the price difference accounts for shipping and then some :)

But even though we still have some time to look into this till release in april, I am now leaning towards getting a PAL machine. But before I do, some looking into 50i&25p support in the hardware & software chain seems to be a must. Thanks Fergus.

Fergus Anderson · February 15th, 2007, 02:37 PM

Well I'm keeping an open mind about this until April but despite the other benefits I too am leaning more towards the 25p model. It will be interesting to see if the HV20 will be able to manage tru 25p without any problems like the Sony V1.

February 13th, 2007, 10:54 AM	#1
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	NTSC v PAL HV20? Hi all Well I currently have a PAL HV10 and love it but will be upgrading to the HV20 in April. I am just wondering whether to buy another PAL 50hz model or this time to import an NTSC 60Hz cam? I know there are issues with stip lights etc using 60hz cams in Europe but I'm thinking about the US model for the following benefits: 1) 24p rather than having to slow down 25p. Is there any benefit of 25p over 24p? If 25p doesnt need to use 3:2 pulldown is that better? 2) Currently only 60hz HDV material can be played natively on HD-DVD players 3) Flatscreen monitors mainly operate at 60hz. I currently have a Sony FW900 CRT which is great because I can selecet the refresh rate (mainly use 75 or 100hz), however, if I want to upgrade to a LCD monitor it will operate at 60hz. Playing back 50hz HDV on a 60hz monitor will cause judder? 4) Slow mo will look better in vegas etc when going from 60i to 24p than 50i to 25p 5) It might be cheaper to import (dollar Xchange rate) 6) Even in the UK most LCD televisions at 1080p operate at 60hz more frequently than 50hz. 60hz is also more common on Plasma screens. Disadvantages I can think of: 1) Issues with strip lighting 2) Warranty issues buying abroad 3) Import tax Any comments, corrections or additions to the above would be welcomed Cheers Fergus Last edited by Fergus Anderson; February 13th, 2007 at 12:33 PM.

February 13th, 2007, 03:54 PM	#2
Andrew King New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 5	I live in PAL lands, but might favour a 24p version of the HV20. I owned one of the first DV cameras JVC GRDV1 as an NTSC model in 1997 (flew back to UK from Japan), and had little trouble with 50Hz lighting - I remember it used to sync itself quickly in if there was any 'flicker' - and then I would shoot. A recent look at video projectors on sale yielded more support for 24p than 25p. FCP seems to be able to handle 24p in the 60i stream (I don't know how other NLEs are handling this or 25p). The CMOS chip has yielded progressive 24p successfully, but I don't think that the 25p has yielded that yet from what I read about the Sony HVR V1. Are they similar chips? Reading up that it is overall easier to make 24p go to 60Hz delivery (as delivered already in the camera), and also to convert to 25p (with the usual 'movie' speed-up that all PAL land viewers are used to!). So does 24p solve all PAL land's criteria? I am beginning to think so. Any thoughts from anyone else would be very welcome too.

February 13th, 2007, 06:12 PM	#3
Pieter Jongerius Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 101	Actually a pretty refreshing idea... couple of thoughts&questions: 1 - I guess 25p in 50i saves you the inverse telecine step of 24p in 60i, thats all. Maybe a slight render load decrease. 4 - Yes, but at the other hand the MPEG2 compression at 50hz just might have higher bytes-per-frame, because of the fixed HDV bitrate of 25Mbs. (and thus less compression artifacts) 6 - are you sure about LCD television sets that produce images at 60hz in Europe, while they operate at 50Hz AC and will primarily have to produce 50i SD video when watching TV? It would raise questions indeed... Possible minor disadvantage: - you may need an AC converter from 110V up to 220V for the recharger. Edit: from Jack's post at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=86361 I gather that AC voltage should not be a problem.

February 14th, 2007, 06:10 AM	#5
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	Thanks chaps Good point about the 25mbs compression at 50hz being potentially better than 60hz I have been looking at some 1080p LCD's in the UK and it seems they can handle 1920x1080 @60hz more commonly than 50hz. Equally many monitors are set at 60hz such at the dell 24, 27 and 30 inch models. Lee - I guess the only benefit of 24p over 25p is for film out / film look but I do take you point that 25p has one extra frame of information every second. Ideally 50 or 60p would be an option!

February 14th, 2007, 09:44 AM	#6
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Sorry for the delay. 1. 25p is much much easier to deal with because it just sits inside of a normal 50i HDV stream with the HV20. That means not only will it work no problem in any NLE that supports 50i HDV but you will not have to remove the pulldown in order to edit the progressive frames. All you have to do is capture the 25p and edit it in a 50i timeline and you are pretty much good to go. With 24p you have to use special software to remove the pulldown frames in order to edit the true 24p. 2. 24p will not playback very well on your 50i TV. If you want to watch what you shot you will be out of luck here. The only way you will be able to watch the 60i signal is to hook it up to your computer. Some HDTV's may support both 60i and 50i but I'm not sure on that one. I do know however that if you want to watch your video downconverted in camera to a SD TV you will be out of luck. 3. Hollywood DVD's in PAL regions are encoded as 25p and sped up. So if your plans are a progressive DVD then you will want to keep it as 25p anyways. If you shoot 24p you will end up having to speed it up to fit it in as 25p anyways so it serves little point. Many people have shot movies as 25p and shifted to 24p if they really did get a chance for a film out. Virtually nobody on the planet could ever tell. 4. Editing. In PAL regions if you have a NLE that has a monitor out such as the Intensity card or a down converted SD output live while you edit you will wish you had 25p. 24p will not be able to be converted to 25p on the fly to work with the hardware. 5. If you ever need to shoot 50i for PAL regions with a 60i camera you will not be able to. Your only option would be to shoot 24p and process the video to 25p. Some clients may not want 25p and may prefer 50i or 50p.

February 15th, 2007, 03:57 AM	#8
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	Thanks guys Well taking into consideration the preferability of 25p editing ina 50i timeline and given the extra frame per second perhaps 25p should be considered a plus. There are still the issues with HDV playback on HD-DVD players, PC monitors (60hz), slow mo and the cheaper cost of the 60hz model. I think that the issue with 1080p LCD's might be overstated since I have since discovered some that will accept 1080p at 50hz

February 15th, 2007, 04:46 AM	#9
Lee Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 376	[/quote]I think that the issue with 1080p LCD's might be overstated since I have since discovered some that will accept 1080p at 50hz[/QUOTE] As our (UK) power supply is 50hz won't most LCDs sold in the UK cycle at 50hz ?

February 15th, 2007, 05:04 AM	#10
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	yes but people on avforums seem to think that 1080p TV's might not necessarily accept a 1080-25p signal. I wonder though as the 25p HDV will be within a 50i stream?

February 15th, 2007, 08:58 AM	#12
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Even if it is 60hz we have the same problem with 24p on a 60hz display. 24p doesn't refresh as well in 60hz which is why we are starting to see HDTV's that run at a 120hz. 120hz can divide 24p and 60p equally into whole numbers for a much better look. So regardless if you have a 50zh display or a 60hz display 24p will not look as smooth. Now if the displays over are 50hz then 25p should look great. As for the extra frame it doesn't matter. That one extra frame per second isn't even noticed. No human can detect it that I know of. The only thing people can ever detect between 24p and 25p is the slight audio pitch shift. Of course you could use time compression on the audio track then the pitch wouldn't change. As I see it there is very little to no reason to use a 24p camera in a 25p region. I see no advantage at all other then cost. Are you sure however that the cost difference isn't being reflected in the currancy exchange? I would think shipping a 24p camera would offset any cost difference anyway, unless you know a local place that happens to sell NTSC models. Even then I would think their importing and stocking fees for a camera that wouldn't sell as well as the 25p model would actually make it cost more. I know here in the US the PAL models usually cost a lot more then the NTSC ones mainly due to importing costs and low sales numbers.

February 15th, 2007, 02:00 PM	#13
Pieter Jongerius Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 101	On the cost: in Holland the price will probably be around 1300 Euros, a little over $1700. I guess that the price difference accounts for shipping and then some :) But even though we still have some time to look into this till release in april, I am now leaning towards getting a PAL machine. But before I do, some looking into 50i&25p support in the hardware & software chain seems to be a must. Thanks Fergus.

February 15th, 2007, 02:37 PM	#14
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	Well I'm keeping an open mind about this until April but despite the other benefits I too am leaning more towards the 25p model. It will be interesting to see if the HV20 will be able to manage tru 25p without any problems like the Sony V1.