HV20..What are the benefits of Progessive Scanning and 24p recording? at DVinfo.net

Brad Vaughan · January 31st, 2007, 01:17 PM

Sorry guys, it's me again...the guy salivating for HDV answers. :)

So it appears many of you are excited about the HV20 and it's rubbing off on me, but I need to "know" why!

So please tell me what the benefits of 24p Recording and Progressive Scanning are.

This is what I have gathered so far (if correct that is):

24p allows for a more cinematic look and the HV20 "will" record footage in that mode?

Progressive will record footage without the de-interlacing lines giving us better image quality?

I have no problems forking over another Grand+ for these features, but I will need the ability to explain to my Wife why I "needed" the newer version.

Also with the added HDMI port and a Black Magic Intensity PCI card, Chris mentioned you can capture straight to PC without HDV compression which I take to mean the IQ will be even better?

Please bare with me Ladies and Gentlemen as I'm a new HDV addict and I need to get up to speed asap.

Many, many thanks.

Brad

You know, it's kinda weird jumping for joy and not knowing truly why! Just hearing you guys so excited about the HV20 has me saying... "I'm in, I'm in, can I play?"

*edit*

So am I correct in assuming that capturing with the HDMI card actually transfers the footage at 1920x1080 rather than 1440x1080?

Chris Hurd · January 31st, 2007, 01:25 PM

Hi Brad,

24p was a big deal several years ago when it was finally available in an affordable camcorder, the Panasonic DVX100. "Affordable" is a highly relative term -- it still cost several thousand dollars but it was the least expensive way to shoot in 24 frames per second, which is a video frame rate that emulates the motion signature of the movies you see at the neighborhood Cineplex, which are shot on 35mm motion picture film.

You might browse through our Panasonic DVX100 and Canon XL2 boards; there are scores of discussions there relating to 24p and what it's all about. Hope this helps,

Brad Vaughan · January 31st, 2007, 01:33 PM

Thanks Chris.

I'll dig around.

Laurentiu Todie · January 31st, 2007, 01:54 PM

and Soylent Green seems to be a dupe of Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" : )
(is it true that there are a total of 29 plots for all the movies there ever were?)

hey! you edited while I was typing

Tim Le · January 31st, 2007, 02:32 PM

Brad,

The 24P recording also requires more careful and disciplined camerawork for it to look good. Home video style, spontaneous framing and movements will not look good at the low frame rates of 24P because it will look stuttering (is that a word?). So really, all these features that people are exciting about (24P, mic input, etc.) are very esoteric and only needed in a very specific style of shooting. For the average enthusiast, shooting in 60i is fine and you can still have very good production values with careful attention to good camerawork.

The HDMI is really only important as a convenient way to hook up the camera to a HDTV. The uncompressed output is there but to take advantage of it you'd need a computer with sufficient horsepower and storage to record that huge amount of data. Again, this is a nice bonus for very specific applications but for the casual user, you'll never use it.

Wes Vasher · January 31st, 2007, 02:39 PM

Right, we shouldn't forget that the HV10 takes amazing 60i footage, and now we have the HV20 which hopefully will be just as good for 60i with a bunch of extra features. For example I can now use my nice boom mic for better audio, big plus.

24p is quite useful for doing FX shots. Interlacing is the bane of anyone doing FX work, be it roto or keying. Also if you are doing roto work, 24 fps means quite a bit less work than 30 fps. Also if you are distributing web videos the bandwidth can be reduced slightly.

Holly Rognan · January 31st, 2007, 03:07 PM

In short, 24p is Godsend. I dont know how they justified outting all these features in such a low price, but I am not complaining. I bet this will outsell any other camcorder, ever made in the $800-$1500 range.

This will be used in reality tv shows for quick and dirty pickup shots, high schools will use them in classes, new parents, film makers... a large spectrum will find great value in this little machine.

I cant wait.

Lee Wilson · January 31st, 2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Vaughan

So am I correct in assuming that capturing with the HDMI card actually transfers the footage at 1920x1080 rather than 1440x1080?

Yes, and also HDMI is way of avoiding HDV (MPEG2) compression.

Fergus Anderson · January 31st, 2007, 03:13 PM

Im in the UK so being PAL will we get 25p? Are there any advantages / disadvantages over 24P Not using pulldown? I wonder if it will have the same issues as the V1 with 25p? I must say its very annoying that in PAL land we never get 24p!!! Does anyone know if you will be able to send the camera off to canon to get 60i and 24p functionality added like they do with the A1?

Larry Kamerman · January 31st, 2007, 03:48 PM

Anyone know how well the 24P footage will match with the 24F footage from the A1? How difficult or easy will it be to edit both in the same timeline?

Fergus Anderson · January 31st, 2007, 03:49 PM

forgot to add what is HDV2? - will it record 1920x1080?

Brad Vaughan · January 31st, 2007, 04:25 PM

Ah ha, answered the progressive scanning question myself thanks to good ole Google and Wikipedia...

Advantages of progressive scan:

* Simpler video processing equipment
* Easier compression
* Higher resolution and fewer artifacts in video with motion compared to
interlaced video of the same line rate.

Sounds fantastic to me! Man, I'm lovin this HD goodness! Looks like I got addicted at the right time!

Chris Hurd · January 31st, 2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus Anderson

forgot to add what is HDV2? - will it record 1920x1080?

It's nothing new. HDV2 is just an unofficial designator for the "Sony" 1080i flavor of HDV, as opposed to the "JVC" 720p flavor of HDV (referred to here as HDV1). HDV2 records to tape as 1440 x 1080 anamorphic.

Chris Hurd · January 31st, 2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Kamerman

Anyone know how well the 24P footage will match with the 24F footage from the A1? How difficult or easy will it be to edit both in the same timeline?

It should be easy, since both capture as 24p. The motion signature should be identical between the two.

Chris Hurd · January 31st, 2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus Anderson

I must say its very annoying that in PAL land we never get 24p! Does anyone know if you will be able to send the camera off to canon to get 60i and 24p functionality added like they do with the A1?

No, there won't be any "upgrade" path like there is for the pro-level cameras. The reason why you never get 24p in PAL land is because you already have it: 25p. The human eye certainly can't detect the one frame per second difference. And if you ever need 24p for some reason, it's a fairly simple process to convert 25p to 24p.

January 31st, 2007, 01:17 PM	#1
Brad Vaughan Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Va Beach, Va Posts: 241	HV20..What are the benefits of Progessive Scanning and 24p recording? Sorry guys, it's me again...the guy salivating for HDV answers. :) So it appears many of you are excited about the HV20 and it's rubbing off on me, but I need to "know" why! So please tell me what the benefits of 24p Recording and Progressive Scanning are. This is what I have gathered so far (if correct that is): 24p allows for a more cinematic look and the HV20 "will" record footage in that mode? Progressive will record footage without the de-interlacing lines giving us better image quality? I have no problems forking over another Grand+ for these features, but I will need the ability to explain to my Wife why I "needed" the newer version. Also with the added HDMI port and a Black Magic Intensity PCI card, Chris mentioned you can capture straight to PC without HDV compression which I take to mean the IQ will be even better? Please bare with me Ladies and Gentlemen as I'm a new HDV addict and I need to get up to speed asap. Many, many thanks. Brad You know, it's kinda weird jumping for joy and not knowing truly why! Just hearing you guys so excited about the HV20 has me saying... "I'm in, I'm in, can I play?" edit So am I correct in assuming that capturing with the HDMI card actually transfers the footage at 1920x1080 rather than 1440x1080?

January 31st, 2007, 01:25 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Hi Brad, 24p was a big deal several years ago when it was finally available in an affordable camcorder, the Panasonic DVX100. "Affordable" is a highly relative term -- it still cost several thousand dollars but it was the least expensive way to shoot in 24 frames per second, which is a video frame rate that emulates the motion signature of the movies you see at the neighborhood Cineplex, which are shot on 35mm motion picture film. You might browse through our Panasonic DVX100 and Canon XL2 boards; there are scores of discussions there relating to 24p and what it's all about. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 31st, 2007, 01:54 PM	#4
Laurentiu Todie New Boot Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rego Park, NY Posts: 20	ha! u funny and Soylent Green seems to be a dupe of Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" : ) (is it true that there are a total of 29 plots for all the movies there ever were?) hey! you edited while I was typing

January 31st, 2007, 03:48 PM	#10
Larry Kamerman Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New York,NY Posts: 100	Anyone know how well the 24P footage will match with the 24F footage from the A1? How difficult or easy will it be to edit both in the same timeline? __________________ www.gencofilms.com

January 31st, 2007, 01:33 PM	#3
Brad Vaughan Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Va Beach, Va Posts: 241	Thanks Chris. I'll dig around.

January 31st, 2007, 02:32 PM	#5
Tim Le Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 350	Brad, The 24P recording also requires more careful and disciplined camerawork for it to look good. Home video style, spontaneous framing and movements will not look good at the low frame rates of 24P because it will look stuttering (is that a word?). So really, all these features that people are exciting about (24P, mic input, etc.) are very esoteric and only needed in a very specific style of shooting. For the average enthusiast, shooting in 60i is fine and you can still have very good production values with careful attention to good camerawork. The HDMI is really only important as a convenient way to hook up the camera to a HDTV. The uncompressed output is there but to take advantage of it you'd need a computer with sufficient horsepower and storage to record that huge amount of data. Again, this is a nice bonus for very specific applications but for the casual user, you'll never use it.

January 31st, 2007, 02:39 PM	#6
Wes Vasher Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 440	Right, we shouldn't forget that the HV10 takes amazing 60i footage, and now we have the HV20 which hopefully will be just as good for 60i with a bunch of extra features. For example I can now use my nice boom mic for better audio, big plus. 24p is quite useful for doing FX shots. Interlacing is the bane of anyone doing FX work, be it roto or keying. Also if you are doing roto work, 24 fps means quite a bit less work than 30 fps. Also if you are distributing web videos the bandwidth can be reduced slightly.

January 31st, 2007, 03:07 PM	#7
Holly Rognan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Coalville America Posts: 244	In short, 24p is Godsend. I dont know how they justified outting all these features in such a low price, but I am not complaining. I bet this will outsell any other camcorder, ever made in the $800-$1500 range. This will be used in reality tv shows for quick and dirty pickup shots, high schools will use them in classes, new parents, film makers... a large spectrum will find great value in this little machine. I cant wait.

January 31st, 2007, 03:13 PM	#9
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	Im in the UK so being PAL will we get 25p? Are there any advantages / disadvantages over 24P Not using pulldown? I wonder if it will have the same issues as the V1 with 25p? I must say its very annoying that in PAL land we never get 24p!!! Does anyone know if you will be able to send the camera off to canon to get 60i and 24p functionality added like they do with the A1?

January 31st, 2007, 03:49 PM	#11
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	forgot to add what is HDV2? - will it record 1920x1080?

January 31st, 2007, 04:25 PM	#12
Brad Vaughan Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Va Beach, Va Posts: 241	Ah ha, answered the progressive scanning question myself thanks to good ole Google and Wikipedia... Advantages of progressive scan: * Simpler video processing equipment * Easier compression * Higher resolution and fewer artifacts in video with motion compared to interlaced video of the same line rate. Sounds fantastic to me! Man, I'm lovin this HD goodness! Looks like I got addicted at the right time!