Capture to Black Magic Multibridge extreme at DVinfo.net

John Jencks · November 29th, 2006, 01:27 PM

Pardon my ignorance, but is it possible to capture direct from a HV10 through a Blackmagic multibridge extreme into FCP?
And if one was to do this, what would be the best way of doing it?
I am asking because I used an Hv10 as second camera with an HVX-200 and I want to capture all my footage as DVC-pro HD rather than capture it as HDV and convert it in the computer.
Thanks
John

Thomas Smet · November 29th, 2006, 04:11 PM

Yes you can use the HD component connections and capture HD as DVCPRO HD on your Mac system. The clips will be 1080i however. Did you shoot 720p or 1080i/p with the HVX200? If you shot 720p then you will still have to convert to 720 in your software.

John Jencks · November 29th, 2006, 04:53 PM

Thanks Thomas,
I shot 1080i with the HVX so that it would be as simple as possible to go between the two formats in post.
Just a question on the capturing side of the HV-10, and I should know this, but if I come out of the HV-10 component, how do I go in to the Multibridge Extreme, is there a cable that I can by that goes from component to HD SDI, or through some other route.
Thanks again for your help.
john

Thomas Smet · November 30th, 2006, 01:40 AM

The Multibridge Extreme has component inputs. You just hook up the component cable that came with the camera and capture as DVCPRO HD. The multibridge also has analog audio inputs although I think you will have to go to Radioshack to buy some minijack to XLR audio adapters.

John Jencks · November 30th, 2006, 02:04 AM

So I have to capture from the HV-10 as analog video, rather than digital? Doesn't this rather refeat the purpose?
Thanks again Thomas

Thomas Smet · November 30th, 2006, 09:12 AM

regardless if you go component to SDI or component directly into the multibridge the quality will be the same.

SDI is just a digital pipe and component converted to SDI is the same as capturing analog video into a digital file. It all becomes digital from analog in the end.

Component is not that bad at all. It may not be digital but if you use a short high quality cable you should hopefully get some good results.

The aim here was for you to easily edit DVCPRO HD and DVCPRO HD with great speed and no issues.

The quality will not get any better but then if you are coming from a HDV tape even SDI wouldn't help you out in terms of quality. A HDV tape is a HDV tape and there is no magic that can help that.

In some ways I like analog because it tends to smooth out the 4:2:0 color and some of the artifacts. It may be just a hair softer but then again converting to 1280x1080 DVCPRO HD is kind of soft anyways. Besides your HV10 has more raw detail then your HVX-200 so the tiny softening may be welcome to better match.

If you are not happy with the results then just use firewire and spend the time converting with your software. It may look a little bit better but then again you spent a lot more time to get the same overall results.

The only other suggestion would be to rent one of the Canon HDV cameras with SDI and use it as a deck to feed the tape from your HV10 through SDI.

The analog from the HV10 is still high quality HD. I cannot say exactly how good or bad it will look to your eyes but I do know it is still high quality HD. I do not yet have my HD capture card that can do component but I do have a uncompressed SD system and using component in this way gives me some super great results.

John Jencks · November 30th, 2006, 10:12 AM

Thomas,
Thank you once again,
The fabulous thing about this forum, for some one like me, is that not only when I get stuck with something can I find help, but sometimes people give such full and helpful answers that they improve my understanding of how digital video works in the whole.
Also it is great when my flashy editor friends cut something together with lots of effects and colour correction to make it look very cool, whereas all I have to do, is do it right, and it looks amazing.
If you don't hear from me for a bit its because I'm capturing footage,
John

Spike Spiegel · December 8th, 2006, 11:22 AM

Great response Thomas, i'm torn apart in deciding between the decklink multibridge and the aja xena lhe.

Going back to what you said about capturing thru the HD-SDI pipeline through a canon hdv cam... DOes this mean that we can pop open a HD-SDI project preset in adobe, and simply capture HDV tapes through the xlh1 or any other HDV cam connected to the comp thru sdi?

Is this going to really make a difference as opposed to firewire/component?

Gary Barr · February 13th, 2007, 07:27 AM

great info on this thanks. I'm using the HV-10 as a deck too and was concerned about the audio - would it be enough with a short cable run to use rca female to xlr leads to my AJA Kona LH rather than a converter box (unbalanced-balanced)?

Rich Dykmans · February 13th, 2007, 10:32 AM

It's always interesting to read comments about SDI vs component or HDMI vs component. My only chance to compare the first was a chance to flip a Panasonic LT1700 back and forth between an SDI and component signal coming out of a Matrox MXO at Macworld. The video the Matrox guys were using at their demo was pretty good quality (did not look like HDV) and I personally couldn't see a bit of difference between the 2 different signal paths. I also cant see any major difference on my Plasma TV coming out of my DVD player either (comp. vs HDMI)

My limited experience tells me not to agonize over any of it. A component feed out of the HV10 to the DVCPro codec via the Multibridge sounds like a great RT solution. I seriously doubt you'd get any better perceptible quality with an SDI or HDMI feed off tape but I'm certainly interested in real life feedback.

The SDI output on that G1 is more for a live feed to studio broadcast equipment then to improve tape based output IMHO.

Thomas, I was interested in your comment about transcoding HDV to DVCPro HD via SW (vs hardware) and the ensuing quality. I've always been under the impression that hardware does it better then software. Is your experience different?

Thomas Smet · February 13th, 2007, 11:12 AM

My comment was about capturing analog as DVCPROHD vs. firewire and then converting to DVCPROHD. The only quality difference I was talking about was any tiny level of loss due to the analog transfer. A HDV capture is HDV but it is a digital transfer so there is no analog loss. I doubt anybody would ever be able to tell the difference however.

Hardware isn't always better either. Hardware does does what it does fast. It can be made to have a high level of quality since it usually costs more. Hardware just means all the code is built into a chip that processes the conversion. Software conversion is software code that uses your cpu.gpu to power conversion and perform the math. Software however is much easier to adapt and adjust while a hardware conversion is often set for a one size fits all conversion. Software can higher quality because it doesn't need to be done in realtime on the fly. This means the settings can be set to maximize quality whereas hardware has a set way to do it to make sure it happens in realtime.

Finally you have to be careful with hardware encoders/decoders. They are not all at the same level of quality. A mpeg2 HDV encoder chip in a $1,000.00 camera is not the same as a broadcast mpeg2 HD encoder used to broadcast HD at a 18mbps datarate. While the encoder/decoder chip in the HV10 is amazing for the cost of the camera is has to be one of the cheapest HDV decoder chips in the industry based on the price of the camera.

Robert Ducon · February 15th, 2007, 01:34 PM

Thomas, I have a Decklink HD Extreme and let's say I use my HV10 via component to capture to a 4-drive SATA raid in my Mac Pro at a high data rate (as to bypass HDV naturally). Will it always be "i" or could I capture the 24"P" as, well, 24P? I could capture in any codec - I'd prefer a deeper data rate than DVCPRO HD anyway.

Using this setup, could I capture progressive as progressive?

Thomas Smet · February 15th, 2007, 03:30 PM

Sadly no. Component comes out as an interlaced stream running at 60i. The uncompressed or lightly compressed file will be interlaced but with a 3:2 pulldown pattern. That means 3 out of every 5 frames will be progressive but then 2 frames will look interlaced. You will then have to use software to remove the 3:2 pattern to give you a true 24p video. If you buy and use Cineform however their software will remove the 3:2 pulldown on the fly during capture so the file on your hard drive will be 24p.

Now if anybody is a 25p user they will not have to worry about anything. 25p and 30p are much easier to deal with during uncompressed capture. The frames across as interlaced but they capture and look just like a progressive frame so it doesn't matter. 24p is the only complex beast because of the nature of how it needs to fit inside of 60i.

Robert Ducon · February 15th, 2007, 09:40 PM

Thomas, great explanation - thanks.

Alex Raskin · May 25th, 2007, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

... 30p are much easier to deal with during uncompressed capture. The frames across as interlaced but they capture and look just like a progressive frame so it doesn't matter.

Thomas, I did not get it, sorry.

Are you saying that HV20's 60i video is actually 30p split between 2 fields? Or were you referring to some other camcorders?

Kindly clarify - thanks....

November 29th, 2006, 01:27 PM	#1
John Jencks Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 43	Capture to Black Magic Multibridge extreme Pardon my ignorance, but is it possible to capture direct from a HV10 through a Blackmagic multibridge extreme into FCP? And if one was to do this, what would be the best way of doing it? I am asking because I used an Hv10 as second camera with an HVX-200 and I want to capture all my footage as DVC-pro HD rather than capture it as HDV and convert it in the computer. Thanks John __________________ If any one knows a good on-line ordering facility for dunces caps; I'll take 20.

November 29th, 2006, 04:53 PM	#3
John Jencks Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 43	Thanks Thomas, I shot 1080i with the HVX so that it would be as simple as possible to go between the two formats in post. Just a question on the capturing side of the HV-10, and I should know this, but if I come out of the HV-10 component, how do I go in to the Multibridge Extreme, is there a cable that I can by that goes from component to HD SDI, or through some other route. Thanks again for your help. john __________________ If any one knows a good on-line ordering facility for dunces caps; I'll take 20.

November 30th, 2006, 02:04 AM	#5
John Jencks Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 43	So I have to capture from the HV-10 as analog video, rather than digital? Doesn't this rather refeat the purpose? Thanks again Thomas __________________ If any one knows a good on-line ordering facility for dunces caps; I'll take 20.

November 30th, 2006, 10:12 AM	#7
John Jencks Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 43	Thomas, Thank you once again, The fabulous thing about this forum, for some one like me, is that not only when I get stuck with something can I find help, but sometimes people give such full and helpful answers that they improve my understanding of how digital video works in the whole. Also it is great when my flashy editor friends cut something together with lots of effects and colour correction to make it look very cool, whereas all I have to do, is do it right, and it looks amazing. If you don't hear from me for a bit its because I'm capturing footage, John __________________ If any one knows a good on-line ordering facility for dunces caps; I'll take 20.

February 15th, 2007, 01:34 PM	#12
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	interlaced always, or can I capture progressive via component? Thomas, I have a Decklink HD Extreme and let's say I use my HV10 via component to capture to a 4-drive SATA raid in my Mac Pro at a high data rate (as to bypass HDV naturally). Will it always be "i" or could I capture the 24"P" as, well, 24P? I could capture in any codec - I'd prefer a deeper data rate than DVCPRO HD anyway. Using this setup, could I capture progressive as progressive? __________________ Mac + Canon HV20

November 29th, 2006, 04:11 PM	#2
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Yes you can use the HD component connections and capture HD as DVCPRO HD on your Mac system. The clips will be 1080i however. Did you shoot 720p or 1080i/p with the HVX200? If you shot 720p then you will still have to convert to 720 in your software.

November 30th, 2006, 01:40 AM	#4
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	The Multibridge Extreme has component inputs. You just hook up the component cable that came with the camera and capture as DVCPRO HD. The multibridge also has analog audio inputs although I think you will have to go to Radioshack to buy some minijack to XLR audio adapters.

November 30th, 2006, 09:12 AM	#6
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	regardless if you go component to SDI or component directly into the multibridge the quality will be the same. SDI is just a digital pipe and component converted to SDI is the same as capturing analog video into a digital file. It all becomes digital from analog in the end. Component is not that bad at all. It may not be digital but if you use a short high quality cable you should hopefully get some good results. The aim here was for you to easily edit DVCPRO HD and DVCPRO HD with great speed and no issues. The quality will not get any better but then if you are coming from a HDV tape even SDI wouldn't help you out in terms of quality. A HDV tape is a HDV tape and there is no magic that can help that. In some ways I like analog because it tends to smooth out the 4:2:0 color and some of the artifacts. It may be just a hair softer but then again converting to 1280x1080 DVCPRO HD is kind of soft anyways. Besides your HV10 has more raw detail then your HVX-200 so the tiny softening may be welcome to better match. If you are not happy with the results then just use firewire and spend the time converting with your software. It may look a little bit better but then again you spent a lot more time to get the same overall results. The only other suggestion would be to rent one of the Canon HDV cameras with SDI and use it as a deck to feed the tape from your HV10 through SDI. The analog from the HV10 is still high quality HD. I cannot say exactly how good or bad it will look to your eyes but I do know it is still high quality HD. I do not yet have my HD capture card that can do component but I do have a uncompressed SD system and using component in this way gives me some super great results.

December 8th, 2006, 11:22 AM	#8
Spike Spiegel Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 429	Great response Thomas, i'm torn apart in deciding between the decklink multibridge and the aja xena lhe. Going back to what you said about capturing thru the HD-SDI pipeline through a canon hdv cam... DOes this mean that we can pop open a HD-SDI project preset in adobe, and simply capture HDV tapes through the xlh1 or any other HDV cam connected to the comp thru sdi? Is this going to really make a difference as opposed to firewire/component?

February 13th, 2007, 07:27 AM	#9
Gary Barr Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 186	great info on this thanks. I'm using the HV-10 as a deck too and was concerned about the audio - would it be enough with a short cable run to use rca female to xlr leads to my AJA Kona LH rather than a converter box (unbalanced-balanced)?

February 13th, 2007, 10:32 AM	#10
Rich Dykmans Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Discovery Bay, CA Posts: 138	It's always interesting to read comments about SDI vs component or HDMI vs component. My only chance to compare the first was a chance to flip a Panasonic LT1700 back and forth between an SDI and component signal coming out of a Matrox MXO at Macworld. The video the Matrox guys were using at their demo was pretty good quality (did not look like HDV) and I personally couldn't see a bit of difference between the 2 different signal paths. I also cant see any major difference on my Plasma TV coming out of my DVD player either (comp. vs HDMI) My limited experience tells me not to agonize over any of it. A component feed out of the HV10 to the DVCPro codec via the Multibridge sounds like a great RT solution. I seriously doubt you'd get any better perceptible quality with an SDI or HDMI feed off tape but I'm certainly interested in real life feedback. The SDI output on that G1 is more for a live feed to studio broadcast equipment then to improve tape based output IMHO. Thomas, I was interested in your comment about transcoding HDV to DVCPro HD via SW (vs hardware) and the ensuing quality. I've always been under the impression that hardware does it better then software. Is your experience different?

February 13th, 2007, 11:12 AM	#11
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	My comment was about capturing analog as DVCPROHD vs. firewire and then converting to DVCPROHD. The only quality difference I was talking about was any tiny level of loss due to the analog transfer. A HDV capture is HDV but it is a digital transfer so there is no analog loss. I doubt anybody would ever be able to tell the difference however. Hardware isn't always better either. Hardware does does what it does fast. It can be made to have a high level of quality since it usually costs more. Hardware just means all the code is built into a chip that processes the conversion. Software conversion is software code that uses your cpu.gpu to power conversion and perform the math. Software however is much easier to adapt and adjust while a hardware conversion is often set for a one size fits all conversion. Software can higher quality because it doesn't need to be done in realtime on the fly. This means the settings can be set to maximize quality whereas hardware has a set way to do it to make sure it happens in realtime. Finally you have to be careful with hardware encoders/decoders. They are not all at the same level of quality. A mpeg2 HDV encoder chip in a $1,000.00 camera is not the same as a broadcast mpeg2 HD encoder used to broadcast HD at a 18mbps datarate. While the encoder/decoder chip in the HV10 is amazing for the cost of the camera is has to be one of the cheapest HDV decoder chips in the industry based on the price of the camera.

February 15th, 2007, 03:30 PM	#13
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Sadly no. Component comes out as an interlaced stream running at 60i. The uncompressed or lightly compressed file will be interlaced but with a 3:2 pulldown pattern. That means 3 out of every 5 frames will be progressive but then 2 frames will look interlaced. You will then have to use software to remove the 3:2 pattern to give you a true 24p video. If you buy and use Cineform however their software will remove the 3:2 pulldown on the fly during capture so the file on your hard drive will be 24p. Now if anybody is a 25p user they will not have to worry about anything. 25p and 30p are much easier to deal with during uncompressed capture. The frames across as interlaced but they capture and look just like a progressive frame so it doesn't matter. 24p is the only complex beast because of the nature of how it needs to fit inside of 60i.

February 15th, 2007, 09:40 PM	#14
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	Thomas, great explanation - thanks. __________________ Mac + Canon HV20