Canon's consumer HDV cam: iVIS HV10

Stu Holmes · August 3rd, 2006, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Ethington

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Holmes

Originally Posted by Stu Holmes
I think it actually scales that down to 1440x1080 before writing to tape. HDV can't be recorded as 1920x1080.

knowing HDV, we'd assume that. except, no where on the Canon web site does it even reference 1440x1080 - it emphasizes full resolution ("The HV10's CMOS sensor reproduces high-resolution images at 1920 x 1080 resolution with full HD information in video images"). so, either the marketing info is inaccurate (and not entirely truthful), or they are writing 1920x1080 to tape - which, would be very nice indeed... :-)

hopefully canon will clarify or confirm

See this page :
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...2%2Fcanon1.htm
Scroll down til you find the paragraph starting "In addition, with respect"

Transaltion isn't great, but its clear what is happening.

Also, read Chris' post here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....59&postcount=2

regards

Brent Ethington · August 3rd, 2006, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Holmes

See this page :
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...2%2Fcanon1.htm
Scroll down til you find the paragraph starting "In addition, with respect"

Transaltion isn't great, but its clear what is happening.

Also, read Chris' post here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....59&postcount=2

regards

Hi stu,

thanks for the links. the translated text reads "In addition, with respect to the standard of HDV, record resolution becomes the 1,440×1,080 dot, but with iVIS HV10 from CMOS it quarries out image with the 1,920×1,080 dot, from there has reduced in the 1,440×1,080 dot.", so it does imply a reduction from 1920x1080 to 1440x1080 - definitely not clear on any of the official canon english-language sites.

so, why go 1920x1080 -> 1440x1080, instead of using native 1440x1080 as Sony does in the HC3 since the only output option is HDV? I'd think you'd get a better picture by not having to scale the source image (i.e., recording what you capture vs extra processing required). or, am I wrong? I see that the XH A1/G1 still capture at 1440x1080.

Yi Fong Yu · August 4th, 2006, 06:47 AM

based on the CMOS alone, looks like the HV10 is "newer" than its big brothers HD cams. i imagine canon moving forward with their CMOS (in the form of 3x) technology in:
XL H2
XH G2
XH A2

now, if they did that and added that new avc codec to record 1920x1080x24p that would totally rock.

Chris Hurd · August 4th, 2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Ethington

so, why go 1920x1080 -> 1440x1080, instead of using native 1440x1080...

This is just like the Canon XL2. It produces 16:9 widescreen from a CCD pixel matrix of 960x480 even though what's actually recorded to tape is 720x480. Nobody argues with the fact that it's the best way to do 16:9 standard definition in DV. It's the same thing here. Remember an HDTV display is going to scale it back to 1920x1080 anyway.

Thomas Smet · August 4th, 2006, 08:25 AM

It's the same reason why SD cameras use pixel shift. On SD cameras such as the DVX100 the chips are at 720x480 but yet pixel shift is used for higher detail. That is because starting with a higher source will always look better.

Since 1080i HD is really 1920x1080, starting at this point may give you a more natural look when the HDV is stretched back out on your TV.

The Varicam also does this. It uses chips at 1280x720 even though DVCPROHD only uses 960x720 anamorphic pixels. If the chips were 960x720 then when the image is stretched out to 1280x720 you could have some pixelated or aliased edges. Starting with 1280 and scaling down to 960 can smooth the transitions between the details so when it is scaled back up to 1280 on your HDTV the detail edges will be smoother giving a more natural look.

It can be a very small effect but to some it can make a difference.

Also note that while the XLH1 uses 1440x1080 chips it does use pixel shift to try and make that closer to a 1920x1080 chipset. With a single cmos chip you cannot do pixel shift so it is best to start with 1920x1080.

Thomas Smet · August 4th, 2006, 08:31 AM

Oh one final thing. With a 1920x1080 chip that means your live component output is a true 1920x1080 pixel image and not pixel shifted or interpolated. This doesn't really matter for consumers however.

Oh one other thing I thought about is the bayer filter. Starting with 1920x1080 pixel cmos sensor means a little bit more detail to work with when a bayer filter is used. While bayer and RGB filtering has gotten a lot better it still isn't as sharp as a 3 chip design. Starting with 1920 using the bayer filter and then down sampling to 1440 should make a more detailed image then starting with a 1440 chip and using a bayer filter.

Mikko Lopponen · August 4th, 2006, 06:20 PM

The hc1 has a 1920x1440 sensor area. No difference there.

Riley Harmon · August 5th, 2006, 06:12 PM

hollly sheet, ive been backpacking in colorado and waiting to post a thread about how i wanted a matchbook vertical hdv camera, beautiful, prayers answered

Jeff DeMaagd · August 5th, 2006, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balazs Rozsa

1 CCD Canon CMOS camera

I think you'll want to fix that, I assume it was a mental slip. 1CCD is different from CMOS.

Yi Fong Yu · August 7th, 2006, 08:58 AM

anyone know when this is due in the marketplace. i've read october/november, is that true? isn't about the same time as the xh series?

Chris Hurd · August 7th, 2006, 09:13 AM

Starts shipping mid September, it'll be out before the XH camcorders.

Yi Fong Yu · August 7th, 2006, 12:48 PM

thx Chris for continuing to bring us latest+greatest info. i think we all appreciate the amt. of work you do for us =).

~$1,300 for 1920x1080 is a steal for home movies.

it's also great for those who are on a *real* tight budget. i can't wait to test the video caps on my front projector. now, my projector isn't 1080p but @1024x768 i think i can get a good idea of how the visual quality is.

do you think there'll be a lot of pt time videographers using this to replace their SD gear just for the sake of resolution? even 1080 downrez to SD-DVD anamorphic will look better than 480p... will it?

the next few years ought to be very interesting as the lines begin to blur between consumers, prosumers and pros...

Douglas Call · August 7th, 2006, 04:15 PM

I'm going to use it for all my drive by shootings and general walking around camera. I'm hoping that it's low light capability when using it in SD mode is pretty good. I'm constantly on the move and always wanted to be able to scan new potential locations with a handy dandy little camera and this one looks just about perfect. Although I wonder if they're coming out with the AVCHD version of it. Now that would guarantee me buying instantly.

August 4th, 2006, 06:47 AM	#48
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	based on the CMOS alone, looks like the HV10 is "newer" than its big brothers HD cams. i imagine canon moving forward with their CMOS (in the form of 3x) technology in: XL H2 XH G2 XH A2 now, if they did that and added that new avc codec to record 1920x1080x24p that would totally rock. __________________ bow wow wow

August 7th, 2006, 08:58 AM	#55
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	anyone know when this is due in the marketplace. i've read october/november, is that true? isn't about the same time as the xh series? __________________ bow wow wow

August 7th, 2006, 09:13 AM	#56
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Starts shipping mid September, it'll be out before the XH camcorders. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 7th, 2006, 12:48 PM	#57
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	thx Chris for continuing to bring us latest+greatest info. i think we all appreciate the amt. of work you do for us =). ~$1,300 for 1920x1080 is a steal for home movies. it's also great for those who are on a real tight budget. i can't wait to test the video caps on my front projector. now, my projector isn't 1080p but @1024x768 i think i can get a good idea of how the visual quality is. do you think there'll be a lot of pt time videographers using this to replace their SD gear just for the sake of resolution? even 1080 downrez to SD-DVD anamorphic will look better than 480p... will it? the next few years ought to be very interesting as the lines begin to blur between consumers, prosumers and pros... __________________ bow wow wow

August 4th, 2006, 08:25 AM	#50
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	It's the same reason why SD cameras use pixel shift. On SD cameras such as the DVX100 the chips are at 720x480 but yet pixel shift is used for higher detail. That is because starting with a higher source will always look better. Since 1080i HD is really 1920x1080, starting at this point may give you a more natural look when the HDV is stretched back out on your TV. The Varicam also does this. It uses chips at 1280x720 even though DVCPROHD only uses 960x720 anamorphic pixels. If the chips were 960x720 then when the image is stretched out to 1280x720 you could have some pixelated or aliased edges. Starting with 1280 and scaling down to 960 can smooth the transitions between the details so when it is scaled back up to 1280 on your HDTV the detail edges will be smoother giving a more natural look. It can be a very small effect but to some it can make a difference. Also note that while the XLH1 uses 1440x1080 chips it does use pixel shift to try and make that closer to a 1920x1080 chipset. With a single cmos chip you cannot do pixel shift so it is best to start with 1920x1080.

August 4th, 2006, 08:31 AM	#51
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Oh one final thing. With a 1920x1080 chip that means your live component output is a true 1920x1080 pixel image and not pixel shifted or interpolated. This doesn't really matter for consumers however. Oh one other thing I thought about is the bayer filter. Starting with 1920x1080 pixel cmos sensor means a little bit more detail to work with when a bayer filter is used. While bayer and RGB filtering has gotten a lot better it still isn't as sharp as a 3 chip design. Starting with 1920 using the bayer filter and then down sampling to 1440 should make a more detailed image then starting with a 1440 chip and using a bayer filter.

August 4th, 2006, 06:20 PM	#52
Mikko Lopponen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 393	The hc1 has a 1920x1440 sensor area. No difference there.

August 5th, 2006, 06:12 PM	#53
Riley Harmon Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 424	hollly sheet, ive been backpacking in colorado and waiting to post a thread about how i wanted a matchbook vertical hdv camera, beautiful, prayers answered

August 7th, 2006, 04:15 PM	#58
Douglas Call Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hollywood, FL Posts: 302	I'm going to use it for all my drive by shootings and general walking around camera. I'm hoping that it's low light capability when using it in SD mode is pretty good. I'm constantly on the move and always wanted to be able to scan new potential locations with a handy dandy little camera and this one looks just about perfect. Although I wonder if they're coming out with the AVCHD version of it. Now that would guarantee me buying instantly.