panasonic TM900 vs Canon HF G10

Jeff Harper · October 14th, 2011, 06:09 PM

What??? That's awful. I don't shoot 24p, as I'm very happy with 60i, but still that really sucks. I use HDLink so it would be no issue to deinterlace, but how crappy that you have to do that.

Actually with 25p (60i) do you have to do anything with the footage when editing, or can you just output it for Bluray as 60i, and it will retain the 25p look?

Federico Perale · October 14th, 2011, 06:41 PM

I haven't tried yet, but I never shoot 50i, only 25p

Jeff Harper · October 14th, 2011, 06:59 PM

I've shot my last twenty wedding in 720 60p, it's extremely nice. But because the Canon doesn't shoot 720p, I now shoot 60i so all my cameras match. It's still very nice.

24p or 25p is nice I suppose but I use DSLR type cameras that achieve a lot of things with DOF, which is more important to me than frame rate.

I miss 720 60p a little, but its no big loss. The Canon at 60i, is good enough for me. It's images are so good I'm going to sell of a DSLR and get another XA10. I will probably do like you and start shooting 24p at some point.

Federico Perale · October 15th, 2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico Perale

Update: after using both camcorders like crazy I am more convinced that the Canon has a much superior quality to it.
it's not sharpness, it's the actual "depth", the perception the image is not flat.
still I've only managed to test in low light - this morning I shot some comparison shots with full auto mode in both cams in daylight and will report.

I have to say, though, that the OIS of the Canon seems definitely less ideal than the Panasonic.
I haven't really experienced wobble, but I sometimes see some stutter (barely noticeable but definitely there).
now... I am not sure if this is an inherent issue with CMOS sensors, but for some reason I don't see that at all with the Panasonic.
It's difficult to explain, it's as if the OIS in the Canon wasn't...smooth enough at times and you can see that in the playback. has anyone experienced this with the G10/XA10?

finally the Canon seems to be less efficient in terms of battery life: Panasonic has already outperformed as it's still running from my first charge whereas the Canon (with same amount of shots done) is almost gone.

ps. Jeff: once again my name is Federico, not Frederico (nearly there mate)

an example of my point about the OIS of the Canon - I put together quite quickly a video I then uploaded to youtube (for some reason I can't seem to upload on vimeo today)
never mind of rough it is. it's intentionally panning fast
I did a few shots some with standard OIS and other with dynamic one

have a look at the following seconds - the point is that I see some "wobble" or at times the right side looks a bit stuttery.
20sec (buildings on the right side) , 40sec (again on the right side), 59sec (handle of the door), 1.59sec (right side)

what do you guys think?

prova canon HF g10 wobbleWMV.wmv - YouTube

incidentally does anyone know the best format to render to for youtube/vimeo? I tried MainConcept AVC but didn't like the end result. this one is actually WMV 6.7mbps, and it's not bad at all (please remember to select 1080 on youtube)

Don Palomaki · October 16th, 2011, 06:51 AM

The XA10, and presumably the G10, defaults to recording in SP mode (7 Mbps), a substantially lower bit rate recording mode than the camcorder is capable of doing (MPX is 24 Mbps). Further SP is a nominal 1440x1080 (not square pixel) image.

For anything approaching serious work, I would use MXP mode.

Jeff Harper · October 16th, 2011, 06:58 AM

Don, thanks. Mine was set at FXP, just checked. I am glad to know this now, and not after shooting my final few weddings of the season.

Federico Perale · October 16th, 2011, 01:04 PM

Thoughts about the clip I posted? Is that wobble/jitter within what's expectable from the camcorder?

Jeff Harper · October 16th, 2011, 03:47 PM

Dynamic is said by some to be not so great, I don't know. If you're shooting in 24p, then the pans look very good to me when you're in normal mode. Panning is always tough in 24p. In 24p I don't think panning is advisable when handheld if you can avoid it. Pans in 24p are optimal when done very slowly from a tripod or when following a subject.

When handheld you should avoid panning if possible especially in 24p, just my opinion. Instead shoot in the classic style of fixed shots. Hit record, record shot, stop, frame your next shot, hit record.

24p is not suitable for run and gun, that is not how it is ideally used.

If you shoot run and gun, I would shoot in 60i, with your camera. 60p is ideal for run and gun, but we don't have it with this camera.

Federico Perale · October 17th, 2011, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Dynamic is said by some to be not so great, I don't know. If you're shooting in 24p, then the pans look very good to me when you're in normal mode. Panning is always tough in 24p. In 24p I don't think panning is advisable when handheld if you can avoid it. Pans in 24p are optimal when done very slowly from a tripod or when following a subject.

When handheld you should avoid panning if possible especially in 24p, just my opinion. Instead shoot in the classic style of fixed shots. Hit record, record shot, stop, frame your next shot, hit record.

24p is not suitable for run and gun, that is not how it is ideally used.

If you shoot run and gun, I would shoot in 60i, with your camera. 60p is ideal for run and gun, but we don't have it with this camera.

I shoot in 25p (which is not native anyway) but I take your point about interlaced. thing is I do narrative so interlaced has that "news" look to it I don't always like it.
my point was trying to understand if my g10 is somewhat defective as I heard they sometimes have more issues than the xa10 with the OIS>
check out at 00:59.... doesn't it look a bit "stuttering"?

Colin Rowe · October 17th, 2011, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

40bps, wow, large files. I had no idea. What codec does the Panny use, AVCHD or MPEG 2?

17 mbps AVCHD, 28 mbps 1080/50p

Colin Rowe · October 17th, 2011, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico Perale

Thoughts about the clip I posted? Is that wobble/jitter within what's expectable from the camcorder?

Pefectely normal.

Federico Perale · October 17th, 2011, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

40bps, wow, large files. I had no idea. What codec does the Panny use, AVCHD or MPEG 2?

AVCHD..... strangely though, when I tried some slow motion on Vegas it didn't look THAT good anyway...
I even tried with Twixtor and I wasn't impressed...

what's amazing in the Panasonic is the smoothness and steadiness of the image...much more so than the canon

Federico Perale · October 17th, 2011, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

40bps, wow, large files. I had no idea. What codec does the Panny use, AVCHD or MPEG 2?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin Rowe

Pefectely normal.

thanks Colin.... I just thought it looked a bit wobbly at times... I think I have to live with the fact that the OIS is a bit of the Achille's heel compared to the Panasonic. for everything else I have no doubts I like the g10 more

times are quite exciting: just think about what can come up in the next few months/years for prosumers camcorders!! unthinkable just a few years back. If Canon finally releases a new XA10 with 50/60p it will be an incredible piece of kit (which it already is)
f

Federico Perale · October 17th, 2011, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin Rowe

17 mbps AVCHD, 28 mbps 1080/50p

the TM900 has variable bit rate so at 50/60p some users have reported peaks of 38/40mbps

(The Official Panasonic HDC-TM900 Owners Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum)

Jeff Harper · October 17th, 2011, 06:01 AM

60p or 50p has the best slow motion. You cannot have it both ways with the XA10. It doesn't have 50p.

You mention poor slow motion in 25p. That, again, is the nature of the frame rate you have chosen. 24p or 25p does not have the greatest slow motion.

If you are running the Panasonic in 50p, or whatever, (I don't remember what mode you are running the Panasonic or if you said) it will have smoother motion, because that is what 50p does, it produces very smooth images.

If you compare the two cameras you must shoot in the same frame rate to get an accurate comparison. If you are shooting at different frame rates it is apple to oranges.

To get the better images + smoothness you want you would have to buy another camera. The logical choice to "have it all" would be the XF100 or the upcoming new Panasonic AG130.

The panasonic has 50p, the Canon has the better sensor. That's is the problem. You want a camera that combines both.

October 14th, 2011, 06:09 PM	#61
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: panasonic TM900 vs Canon HF G10 What??? That's awful. I don't shoot 24p, as I'm very happy with 60i, but still that really sucks. I use HDLink so it would be no issue to deinterlace, but how crappy that you have to do that. Actually with 25p (60i) do you have to do anything with the footage when editing, or can you just output it for Bluray as 60i, and it will retain the 25p look? __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

October 14th, 2011, 06:41 PM	#62
Federico Perale Major Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: London Posts: 410	Re: panasonic TM900 vs Canon HF G10 I haven't tried yet, but I never shoot 50i, only 25p

October 14th, 2011, 06:59 PM	#63
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: panasonic TM900 vs Canon HF G10 I've shot my last twenty wedding in 720 60p, it's extremely nice. But because the Canon doesn't shoot 720p, I now shoot 60i so all my cameras match. It's still very nice. 24p or 25p is nice I suppose but I use DSLR type cameras that achieve a lot of things with DOF, which is more important to me than frame rate. I miss 720 60p a little, but its no big loss. The Canon at 60i, is good enough for me. It's images are so good I'm going to sell of a DSLR and get another XA10. I will probably do like you and start shooting 24p at some point. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described." Last edited by Jeff Harper; October 14th, 2011 at 10:35 PM.

October 16th, 2011, 06:51 AM	#65
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,488	Re: panasonic TM900 vs Canon HF G10 The XA10, and presumably the G10, defaults to recording in SP mode (7 Mbps), a substantially lower bit rate recording mode than the camcorder is capable of doing (MPX is 24 Mbps). Further SP is a nominal 1440x1080 (not square pixel) image. For anything approaching serious work, I would use MXP mode. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

October 16th, 2011, 06:58 AM	#66
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: panasonic TM900 vs Canon HF G10 Don, thanks. Mine was set at FXP, just checked. I am glad to know this now, and not after shooting my final few weddings of the season. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

October 16th, 2011, 01:04 PM	#67
Federico Perale Major Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: London Posts: 410	Re: panasonic TM900 vs Canon HF G10 Thoughts about the clip I posted? Is that wobble/jitter within what's expectable from the camcorder?

October 16th, 2011, 03:47 PM	#68
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: panasonic TM900 vs Canon HF G10 Dynamic is said by some to be not so great, I don't know. If you're shooting in 24p, then the pans look very good to me when you're in normal mode. Panning is always tough in 24p. In 24p I don't think panning is advisable when handheld if you can avoid it. Pans in 24p are optimal when done very slowly from a tripod or when following a subject. When handheld you should avoid panning if possible especially in 24p, just my opinion. Instead shoot in the classic style of fixed shots. Hit record, record shot, stop, frame your next shot, hit record. 24p is not suitable for run and gun, that is not how it is ideally used. If you shoot run and gun, I would shoot in 60i, with your camera. 60p is ideal for run and gun, but we don't have it with this camera. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

October 17th, 2011, 06:01 AM	#75
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: panasonic TM900 vs Canon HF G10 60p or 50p has the best slow motion. You cannot have it both ways with the XA10. It doesn't have 50p. You mention poor slow motion in 25p. That, again, is the nature of the frame rate you have chosen. 24p or 25p does not have the greatest slow motion. If you are running the Panasonic in 50p, or whatever, (I don't remember what mode you are running the Panasonic or if you said) it will have smoother motion, because that is what 50p does, it produces very smooth images. If you compare the two cameras you must shoot in the same frame rate to get an accurate comparison. If you are shooting at different frame rates it is apple to oranges. To get the better images + smoothness you want you would have to buy another camera. The logical choice to "have it all" would be the XF100 or the upcoming new Panasonic AG130. The panasonic has 50p, the Canon has the better sensor. That's is the problem. You want a camera that combines both. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."