HF S21 or TM700

[Rob deJong]

Can't decide. Some things that I cannot judge from reading about it:

1 the codec. I am not sure that I will be able to edit (in AVID or CS3) with files from Panasonics Full HD, progressive, 30 f/s mode.
2 Otherwise 25 f/s Full HD still in 17 Mb/s. I can't judge if this gives importantly less quality than cannon's 24 Mb/s. I only read that many of you do not like the 17 Mb/s on panasonics camcorders. But I never here anybody compare the codecs with eachother. 17 Mb/s might be good enough for my purposes (creating DVD's).
3 The shoe. I will use an external (Rode) mic. On both camera's it's difficult to see how that will look like, I mean, is it a workable set up? Where exactly are the shoes? I guess on the pan it is on the left side. If that is true, then how can you see the lcd through the shockmount of the mic?

Somebody with some thoughts about this?

A better question might be: why are you guys buying a HF S series canon and not the HDC-TM300 or TM700, while the last one is nearly 300 Euro cheaper then the HF S21??

[Rob deJong]

So why are you guys buying a HF S series canon and not the HDC-TM300 or TM700?

[Bill Meier]

I too am considering both of these cameras. Waiting for prices and reviews. However, I do think that I saw that the shoe adapter for an external mic is on the right side.

[Paulo Teixeira]

It all depends on on what you planing on doing with it.

In Panasonic's favor, theirs obviously a 1080 60p mode, much better stabilizer, better low-light capabilities, a wider lens and a traditional focusing ring. Another benefit is that it costs only $1,000 verses 1,400 for the Canon.

In Canon's favor, their are 2 memory card slots verses 1, native 24p verses 24p with pull-down added, a 30p mode and slightly higher bit rates in the 60i and 24p mode. It also has 64GB of internal storage verses 32GB of the Panasonic.

Panasonic does claim better imaging technology but even if it's just marketing, the much better stabilizer alone will make up for the lower bit rate but then again, if your shooting in 24p, you cannot edit your footage right away like you can with the Canon since you must remove pull-down beforehand.

I like to record events so having a 1080 60p mode is exactly what I need. I'd be able to make 1080p slow-motion sequences plus I love the fact that their a traditional focusing ring. That's why if I had to choose it would definitely be the TM700.

Still, I waiting to see what the successor of the HMC40 and the GH1 will be like.

In this thread you'll find 9 native 1080 60p files for you to download.
Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - Page 5 - AVS Forum

Nero 9 ShowTime will play the files if you have a decent Windows computer but what's surprising is that the Sony PS3 is capable of playing back 1080 60p files.

[Buba Kastorski]

Originally Posted by Rob deJong

So why are you guys buying a HF S series canon and not the HDC-TM300 or TM700?

I got S21 because it is already available from Japan,
when TM700 will become available in the stores I'll do side by side with S21 and one of them will stay, the other will go :)
but just like last year I think Vixia will do better job even with 24Mbs vs 28Mbs on TM700,
58mm vs 46mm, and 3,5" LCD vs 3" on TM/HS series;
I'm sure due to 3chip vs 1, colors will look better on TM/HS, but resolution,
well, we'll see

[Andrew Clark]

The size of the LCD is not the major issue; it's the resolution:

TM700 = 3.0" Wide LCD (230,400 dots)

HSF21 = 3.5-inch High Resolution Touch Panel Widescreen Color LCD (Approx. 922,000 dots)

Why Panny decided on such a low res LCD for a HD cam is ....... well, a bit bewildering.

[Rob deJong]

Originally Posted by Buba Kastorski

I'm sure due to 3chip vs 1, colors will look better on TM/HS, but resolution,
well, we'll see

On other fora HS11 and TM350 are compared and colors of the panasonic seem unnatural compared to the canon, especially the greens. Since I film wildlife, I am very anxious about the color reproduction of the TM700. Was somebody able already to compare this with the canons?

[Bill Koehler]

The Canon HF-S21/20/200 also have LANC support.

[Buba Kastorski]

Originally Posted by Bill Koehler

The Canon HF-S21/20/200 also have LANC support.

that was the main reason for me to upgrade from S10

[Rob deJong]

YES, some kind of remote controle over some functions on the camcorder would be essential for me too.
I will have a 550d ((with long tele lens (as much as 800 mm) when I film birds and macro lens when I film insects)) AND the camcorder BOTH connected to the same WIMBERLEY: Wimberley Professional Photo Gear - The Wimberley Head

The 550d will take close-ups and the camcorder will do wider shots of the same subject (landscapes, overview etc). When the 550d is running I need to be able to operate the camcorder (at least the record function) without disturbing (moving) the long footage of the 550d. I wonder if that is possible with the TM700 included remote (I mean where is the infrared eye placed?).
And if there are any other functions operatable with that remote?

[David Rice]

Would the Canon TL-H46 46mm Tele Converter Lens work on the TM700 ????

[Steve Struthers]

Originally Posted by Andrew Clark

The size of the LCD is not the major issue; it's the resolution:

TM700 = 3.0" Wide LCD (230,400 dots)

HSF21 = 3.5-inch High Resolution Touch Panel Widescreen Color LCD (Approx. 922,000 dots)

Why Panny decided on such a low res LCD for a HD cam is ....... well, a bit bewildering.

When I look at the specs for Panasonic's AG-HMC40 semi-pro camcorder, I notice that it has 1/4" sensors, just like the TM700. More tellingly, the '40 viewfinder and LCD display resolution specs exactly match those for the TM700.

I am similarly puzzled as to why Panasonic would use such a low-res LCD for its semi-pro camera, but not on the TM700, which is really just a consumer-grade camcorder with some very advanced functions.

I did have a chance to check out a TM700 at a local camera store and found that in spite of their relatively low resolution, the viewfinder and the LCD panel weren't that bad - both seemed to be fairly bright and sharp, and manual focusing using either was fairly easy.

Methinks that the TM700 uses many of the same basic components as the HMC40 does, and this is likely a cost-cutting exercise on Panasonic's part.

[Steve Struthers]

Originally Posted by Rob deJong

On other fora HS11 and TM350 are compared and colors of the panasonic seem unnatural compared to the canon, especially the greens. Since I film wildlife, I am very anxious about the color reproduction of the TM700. Was somebody able already to compare this with the canons?

I've noticed the same thing with all the new Panasonic cams - the HMC 150, the HMC 40, and the TMC700/300 models. There is a distinctly greenish-blue tinge to the images each of these cameras produce. In addition to green colours (particularly vegetation) looking rather unnatural, I find skies have this weird cyan colour, (think of the colour of wintergreen toothpaste and you get the idea!) instead of the shade of blue my eyes see when I look at the sky.

I have compared footage from competing Canon cameras, and noticed that the green-blue shift is absent. If anything, Canon cameras tend to shift towards red and an overall warm-looking image, which may appear a bit soft next to Panasonic's sharp image rendering.

As an experiment, I recently downloaded some TM700 footage, threw it into Vegas, and used the colour correction feature to reduce the green cast. When I did that, I noticed that the footage looked more like it came from a Canon camera.

I also tried playing around with some Canon footage, and instead of using straight colour correction, used the Colour Curves tool to boost low-end and high-end gamma. The results were surprising, to say the least - skies took on a Panasonic-type cyan colour (although not quite as pronounced) and green colours started approaching that odd, unnatural Panasonic hue.

Probably the best way to think of the Canon v. Panasonic question is that Canon goes for a warm look, while Panasonic tends to be cool and restrained, a bit like the way Sony cameras are. The results of the experiment I conducted suggest that Panasonic has deliberately engineered in that cool colour gamut in their cameras - probably as a means of setting them apart from Sony and Canon.

If you want to compare HF-S21 footage to TM700 footage, here are a couple of clips on Vimeo that I think will demonstrate the differences between these two cameras:

Canon footage:

AFRICAN MIX HD on Vimeo

Panasonic footage:

panasonic tm700 panorama sanremo 1080 50p on Vimeo

One thing I immediately noticed about the Canon footage is that colours are a bit more muted, but also more natural-looking, More pleasing to my eyes, anyway.

[Steve Struthers]

As to which camera to get, I'm grappling with that very question now - HF-S21, TM700, or possibly the Panasonic AG-HMC40?

I haven't yet had a chance to physically test out the HF-S21. However, having just sold my HF-S100, and done some reading on the S21, I know what to expect in terms of image quality and general features. My take on it is that it is essentially a souped-up S100.

I liked the TM700 I played with in a local camera store. The manual control ring that lets you adjust iris, focus or zoom is neat, and a lot easier to use than Canon's toggle-style zoom and focus wheel which is situated just under the lens. The price is right too - about $1K Canadian and not much to pay considering it uses 3 CMOS chips. I was also impressed with how easily I could use the viewfinder - and that's saying a lot since I wear glasses that happen to be trifocals no less!

On the other hand, I like the HF-S21's monster 3.5" LCD display with 922K-pixel resolution, and the fact that it has a viewfinder.

I also like the AG-HMC40, particularly the fact that it offers even more manual control than the TM700 or the S21, plus an interval/time-lapse photography feature. It's also just a little out of my budget, and since my videos suck anyway, I wonder if it makes sense to be spending that much money. A better camera won't necessarily make me a better shooter.

Decisions, decisions...

[Rob deJong]

I don't really like this TM700 footage, but I don't want to judge on a few panoramic scenes.
I also see some terrible greens from the HF S11/10 on youtube. Did anybody compare footage of HF S series with TM700 of the same object, preferably greens (vegetation/nature), but anything would be good?