Distribution: from Canon HF11 to disc for best quality at DVinfo.net

Jeff Swain · February 2nd, 2009, 02:59 PM

I have a new Canon Vixia HF11 and the results look fantastic -- when I plug my camera directly into my 50" plasma HD TV set. However, the results I get after burning to disc are not nearly as good, and I am asking for advice on distribution.

I have been shooting at the FXP setting (17 mbps); 60i. I have a MacPro (10.5.6, 2x 2.8 GHz Quad-core Intel, 6 GB memory), and made a short (3 min) movie in iMovie '08. Exporting a "large" size file (960x540, the biggest option) and burning to a DVD gives an ok result when played in my Sony Blu-Ray player.

I also have Toast 10 Pro, with the Blu-Ray plug-in. I exported the movie to QuickTime with manual settings (Apple Intermediate Codec, compressor at 1080i, dimensions 1920x1080 16:9) and burned a DVD (Blu-Ray format). When I play it in my Sony Blu-Ray player, it looks better, but still not up to the quality of the original camera files.

It would be great to burn HD videos on economical DVDs, as advertised in the Toast literature, even if I have to stay under 20 min or so. But so far I am unable to re-create on a disc the eye-popping clarity the camera generates. I do not have a Blu-Ray burner on my computer yet. Thanks in advance for any advice! Jeff

Robin Davies-Rollinson · February 2nd, 2009, 03:53 PM

Forget BluRay and other discs - go out and get the Western Digital Media Player. You just plug in any USB drive with your video files (virtually all formats) and it'll play them via an HDMI cable to your tv.

Jeff Swain · February 2nd, 2009, 04:28 PM

Hi Robin and thanks for your suggestion. I checked out the WD Media Player at B&H (they even have a nice video describing it) and it is good as you described -- and a bargain at $108. It seems similar to (maybe better than) an AppleTV, which I already have.

What I really want is something for distribution/sharing with other people -- something low cost that I can give them and they can keep for their memories. DVDs are great (low cost, everyone has a player already) but only SD. It seems like more people are getting Blu-Ray players now that the prices have dropped below $250. I like mine; I think even the "normal" DVDs look better when played on the Blu-Ray player. Thanks, Jeff

Bill Pryor · February 2nd, 2009, 04:59 PM

I think your problem is iMovie. It's not giving you the full size on the export.

Jeff Swain · February 2nd, 2009, 05:07 PM

Hi Bill, and thanks for your idea. For my 3 min movie, the QuickTime file that iMovie made is 2.4 GB, it lists the dimensions as 1920 x 1080, and the Codecs are Apple Intermediate Codec, Integer (Little Endian).

I also have Final Cut Express (4.0.1) and could try it. Any special settings? File > Export > QuickTime movie > ??? Do they use a different codec than iMovie?

Steve Mullen · February 2nd, 2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Swain

What I really want is something for distribution/sharing with other people -- something low cost that I can give them and they can keep for their memories. DVDs are great (low cost, everyone has a player already) but only SD. It seems like more people are getting Blu-Ray players now that the prices have dropped below $250. I like mine; I think even the "normal" DVDs look better when played on the Blu-Ray player. Thanks, Jeff

Yes -- they do look better on many BD players. If you want to make DVDs from HD, you've got to follow the correct procedure. But, I'm not sure if it makes sense to make DVDs with folks buying BD players.

PS: If you export correctly iM use all pixels. Only DV suffers from discarding 1 field. But, this too can be overcome.

Jeff Swain · February 2nd, 2009, 06:54 PM

Hi Steve, thanks for your interest. I just ordered your e-book, which will hopefully answer a lot of my questions.

My main issue right now with Blu-Ray is the high cost of blank discs -- about $10 each -- vs blank DVDs at about 25c each. If my movie is under ~20 min (the Toast guideline), then I should be able to save a bundle by burning HD to DVD. Thanks, Jeff

Larry Horwitz · February 2nd, 2009, 11:43 PM

With the right software and computer, CANON HF11 video can be recorded on standard DVDs which is identical to the original HF11 recordings.

A single layer 25 cent disk holds around 35 minutes, a dual layer disk holds about 70 minutes. I have around 200 such disks here and share them with family all the time. Grandchildren movies which play on both BluRay players as well as PLAYSTATION 3's.

There are tons of messages on this specific forum discussing such disks and software in detail.

Larry

Robert Bale · February 3rd, 2009, 12:34 AM

I under stand your pain, jeff.

I have had this same camera , 2 mths still can not get a good std dvd, from.

I hope some can tell us how to Make a STD DVD from the camera. Not a blu Ray, Not storing it but, all we want is a STD DVD.

If i new i was going to have this much hassle to burn it i would of keep my tape camera.

And the worst part is the lack of support for mac user from canon.

I have VoltaicHD for Mac, But it takes almost 6 hrs to convert i hr of video. Ps i have a mac po 16gig ram, quad code, and so,,. So its not the speed of my system.

Ok I have my rant, hope some one has the answer, it would make a good sticky.

Jeff Swain · February 3rd, 2009, 07:02 AM

Larry, thanks for your message, although a couple of specific tips (or links to other posts) about how you've achieved success would be even better!

Larry Horwitz · February 3rd, 2009, 07:53 AM

Sorry if my prior reply was a bit cryptic Jeff but I was using my iPhone web browser to type it and therefore was not willing to elaborate as much as when I have a regular keyboard to use like I do now. Those who have seen my comments and replies here generally found that I am, if anything, too verbose!!

The HF11 combined with the Mac present a difficult combination unfortunately, since the HF11 produces the highest bitrate AVCHD available and the Mac has the least amount of AVCHD support from the perspective of AVCHD disk authoring. Since you have already tried the new Toast Titanium Pro 10 and are seeing the degredation arising from the transcoding which it does to a lesser bit rate, I can only suggest the following 2 alternatives:

1. For about $165, purchase the Canon accessory called the DW-100 which will directly burn AVCHD disks on standard blanks. These will look great, and will play on other people's BluRay and PS3 players.

2. Under Bootcamp, install a non linear editing and authoring program which supports smart rendering and AVCHD burning. This will yield a very crisp and very attractive AVCHD disk with your edits in a short time period without the many hours of re-rendering time of the Mac apps and without the degredation if you only trim, cut, and splice the video clips together.

In terms of specific threads from this forum to look at, I might suggest these as a starting point:

Burning AVCH Disks Please Help!! - The Digital Video Information Network

AVCHD and Menus on DVD - The Digital Video Information Network

Some AVCHD findings on the Mac - The Digital Video Information Network

PC or Mac for editing AVCHD? - The Digital Video Information Network

A lot has been written here already, and AVCHD has been on the market since 2006 so many people have already dealt with issues you are now raising.

The thought also occurs to me that the new iLife '09 possibly may have some new options in iMovie or iDVD which could allow for a Mac workflow from the HF11 through iMovie '09 to Toast Titanium 10 Pro. Not really sure. I have the software here but not yet installed it. It appears that iDVD, for example, has not changed since version '08 but possibly iMovie '09 has something significant worth checking.

Hope this provides a starting point.

Larry

Jeff Swain · February 3rd, 2009, 08:07 AM

Thanks Larry -- I also hate trying to type on my iPhone and much prefer a regular keyboard. I checked out the Canon DW-100 burner; $170 at B&H: Canon | DW-100 DVD Burner | 2683B002 | B&H Photo Video

The reviews are mixed. And, if I am reading the literature correctly, the burner will only backup the un-edited camera files. What I want is the ability to do some simple editing in iMovie or Final Cut Express, and then distribute the edited version (don't want to punish my friends with all my shooting mistakes!) via disc.

I will read the links you posted and keep working on my problem. It would be bad news if my Mac just wasn't the right machine; we Apple users usually think we have the best equipment for editing!

Michael Murie · February 3rd, 2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Swain

I exported the movie to QuickTime with manual settings (Apple Intermediate Codec, compressor at 1080i, dimensions 1920x1080 16:9) and burned a DVD (Blu-Ray format).

Are you sure that the clips are in iMovie at 1920 x 1080? I know that iMovie 9 has two sizes it imports for 16x9 video - Large 960 x 540, and Full 1920x1080 (which it likes to discourage you from using.) I don't know what iMovie 8 does...

hmm....according to a lot of sources iMovie 08 uses single-field processing. This is reportedly from a MacWorld review:

Quote:

For interlaced video such as DV and 1080i HDV, iMovie now uses single-field processing. This means every other horizontal line of the video is thrown out, which reduces the sharpness of the footage. High definition (HD) footage is processed internally at 960-by-540 pixels at most, and that’s not as high resolution or sharp as it could be (and was in prior versions), but with the output from many HD consumer cameras, the visible difference between Full (1,920-by-1,080) and Large (960-by-540) will likely be slight to negligible for most users. In short, if you want maximum quality output from an HD device, don’t use iMovie ’08.

I haven't been able to determine if iMovie 09 does the same thing.

You might want to switch to Final Cut Express.

Michael Murie · February 3rd, 2009, 10:42 AM

....one note: I think the MacWorld review is slightly wrong. If iMoive is just using single-field processing, then it would be using an image that's 1920x540 not 960x540.

Jeff Swain · February 3rd, 2009, 12:53 PM

Hi Michael and thanks for your ideas. I did import into iMovie '08 at "full" size. I think I will have to try Final Cut Express, as you and other suggest. I have been putting it off, as I have a lot more experience using iMovie (although I liked iM '06 a lot better and am still struggling to cope with '08). Maybe this is the nudge I need to take the plunge fully into new waters.

I just finished Steve Mullen's e-book on iMovie, which is very good, and he suggests also moving away from iMovie if you want to export full HD. This is from page 75 of his "Editing DV and HDV with iMovie 08":

If you shoot FullHD AVCHD or MPEG-2 and plan to export as 1920x1080, you
may want to use iMovie 08 only for import, clip selection, and clip trimming.
Then, without adding any audio, clip effects (color correction, crop/fill, Ken
Burns animations) or any transitions other than Dissolve, export your Project
to FCE or FCP.

February 2nd, 2009, 02:59 PM	#1
Jeff Swain New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 15	Distribution: from Canon HF11 to disc for best quality I have a new Canon Vixia HF11 and the results look fantastic -- when I plug my camera directly into my 50" plasma HD TV set. However, the results I get after burning to disc are not nearly as good, and I am asking for advice on distribution. I have been shooting at the FXP setting (17 mbps); 60i. I have a MacPro (10.5.6, 2x 2.8 GHz Quad-core Intel, 6 GB memory), and made a short (3 min) movie in iMovie '08. Exporting a "large" size file (960x540, the biggest option) and burning to a DVD gives an ok result when played in my Sony Blu-Ray player. I also have Toast 10 Pro, with the Blu-Ray plug-in. I exported the movie to QuickTime with manual settings (Apple Intermediate Codec, compressor at 1080i, dimensions 1920x1080 16:9) and burned a DVD (Blu-Ray format). When I play it in my Sony Blu-Ray player, it looks better, but still not up to the quality of the original camera files. It would be great to burn HD videos on economical DVDs, as advertised in the Toast literature, even if I have to stay under 20 min or so. But so far I am unable to re-create on a disc the eye-popping clarity the camera generates. I do not have a Blu-Ray burner on my computer yet. Thanks in advance for any advice! Jeff

February 2nd, 2009, 04:28 PM	#3
Jeff Swain New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 15	Looking for a way to give people HD video Hi Robin and thanks for your suggestion. I checked out the WD Media Player at B&H (they even have a nice video describing it) and it is good as you described -- and a bargain at $108. It seems similar to (maybe better than) an AppleTV, which I already have. What I really want is something for distribution/sharing with other people -- something low cost that I can give them and they can keep for their memories. DVDs are great (low cost, everyone has a player already) but only SD. It seems like more people are getting Blu-Ray players now that the prices have dropped below $250. I like mine; I think even the "normal" DVDs look better when played on the Blu-Ray player. Thanks, Jeff

February 3rd, 2009, 12:34 AM	#9
Robert Bale Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: australia Posts: 407	I under stand your pain, jeff. I have had this same camera , 2 mths still can not get a good std dvd, from. I hope some can tell us how to Make a STD DVD from the camera. Not a blu Ray, Not storing it but, all we want is a STD DVD. If i new i was going to have this much hassle to burn it i would of keep my tape camera. And the worst part is the lack of support for mac user from canon. I have VoltaicHD for Mac, But it takes almost 6 hrs to convert i hr of video. Ps i have a mac po 16gig ram, quad code, and so,,. So its not the speed of my system. Ok I have my rant, hope some one has the answer, it would make a good sticky. __________________ Rob. www.rpbproductions.com robert@rpbproductions.com HD101/G5 Mac/4gig Ram/1TB HDD/30" Cinema Display/FCP.

February 2nd, 2009, 03:53 PM	#2
Robin Davies-Rollinson Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gwaelod-y-garth, Cardiff, CYMRU/WALES Posts: 1,215	Forget BluRay and other discs - go out and get the Western Digital Media Player. You just plug in any USB drive with your video files (virtually all formats) and it'll play them via an HDMI cable to your tv.

February 2nd, 2009, 04:59 PM	#4
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I think your problem is iMovie. It's not giving you the full size on the export.

February 2nd, 2009, 05:07 PM	#5
Jeff Swain New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 15	Hi Bill, and thanks for your idea. For my 3 min movie, the QuickTime file that iMovie made is 2.4 GB, it lists the dimensions as 1920 x 1080, and the Codecs are Apple Intermediate Codec, Integer (Little Endian). I also have Final Cut Express (4.0.1) and could try it. Any special settings? File > Export > QuickTime movie > ??? Do they use a different codec than iMovie?

February 2nd, 2009, 06:54 PM	#7
Jeff Swain New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 15	Hi Steve, thanks for your interest. I just ordered your e-book, which will hopefully answer a lot of my questions. My main issue right now with Blu-Ray is the high cost of blank discs -- about $10 each -- vs blank DVDs at about 25c each. If my movie is under ~20 min (the Toast guideline), then I should be able to save a bundle by burning HD to DVD. Thanks, Jeff

February 2nd, 2009, 11:43 PM	#8
Larry Horwitz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Eggertsville, NY Posts: 528	With the right software and computer, CANON HF11 video can be recorded on standard DVDs which is identical to the original HF11 recordings. A single layer 25 cent disk holds around 35 minutes, a dual layer disk holds about 70 minutes. I have around 200 such disks here and share them with family all the time. Grandchildren movies which play on both BluRay players as well as PLAYSTATION 3's. There are tons of messages on this specific forum discussing such disks and software in detail. Larry

February 3rd, 2009, 07:02 AM	#10
Jeff Swain New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 15	Larry, thanks for your message, although a couple of specific tips (or links to other posts) about how you've achieved success would be even better!

February 3rd, 2009, 07:53 AM	#11
Larry Horwitz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Eggertsville, NY Posts: 528	Sorry if my prior reply was a bit cryptic Jeff but I was using my iPhone web browser to type it and therefore was not willing to elaborate as much as when I have a regular keyboard to use like I do now. Those who have seen my comments and replies here generally found that I am, if anything, too verbose!! The HF11 combined with the Mac present a difficult combination unfortunately, since the HF11 produces the highest bitrate AVCHD available and the Mac has the least amount of AVCHD support from the perspective of AVCHD disk authoring. Since you have already tried the new Toast Titanium Pro 10 and are seeing the degredation arising from the transcoding which it does to a lesser bit rate, I can only suggest the following 2 alternatives: 1. For about $165, purchase the Canon accessory called the DW-100 which will directly burn AVCHD disks on standard blanks. These will look great, and will play on other people's BluRay and PS3 players. 2. Under Bootcamp, install a non linear editing and authoring program which supports smart rendering and AVCHD burning. This will yield a very crisp and very attractive AVCHD disk with your edits in a short time period without the many hours of re-rendering time of the Mac apps and without the degredation if you only trim, cut, and splice the video clips together. In terms of specific threads from this forum to look at, I might suggest these as a starting point: Burning AVCH Disks Please Help!! - The Digital Video Information Network AVCHD and Menus on DVD - The Digital Video Information Network Some AVCHD findings on the Mac - The Digital Video Information Network PC or Mac for editing AVCHD? - The Digital Video Information Network A lot has been written here already, and AVCHD has been on the market since 2006 so many people have already dealt with issues you are now raising. The thought also occurs to me that the new iLife '09 possibly may have some new options in iMovie or iDVD which could allow for a Mac workflow from the HF11 through iMovie '09 to Toast Titanium 10 Pro. Not really sure. I have the software here but not yet installed it. It appears that iDVD, for example, has not changed since version '08 but possibly iMovie '09 has something significant worth checking. Hope this provides a starting point. Larry

February 3rd, 2009, 08:07 AM	#12
Jeff Swain New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 15	Thanks Larry -- I also hate trying to type on my iPhone and much prefer a regular keyboard. I checked out the Canon DW-100 burner; $170 at B&H: Canon \| DW-100 DVD Burner \| 2683B002 \| B&H Photo Video The reviews are mixed. And, if I am reading the literature correctly, the burner will only backup the un-edited camera files. What I want is the ability to do some simple editing in iMovie or Final Cut Express, and then distribute the edited version (don't want to punish my friends with all my shooting mistakes!) via disc. I will read the links you posted and keep working on my problem. It would be bad news if my Mac just wasn't the right machine; we Apple users usually think we have the best equipment for editing!

February 3rd, 2009, 10:42 AM	#14
Michael Murie Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 205	....one note: I think the MacWorld review is slightly wrong. If iMoive is just using single-field processing, then it would be using an image that's 1920x540 not 960x540.

February 3rd, 2009, 12:53 PM	#15
Jeff Swain New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 15	Hi Michael and thanks for your ideas. I did import into iMovie '08 at "full" size. I think I will have to try Final Cut Express, as you and other suggest. I have been putting it off, as I have a lot more experience using iMovie (although I liked iM '06 a lot better and am still struggling to cope with '08). Maybe this is the nudge I need to take the plunge fully into new waters. I just finished Steve Mullen's e-book on iMovie, which is very good, and he suggests also moving away from iMovie if you want to export full HD. This is from page 75 of his "Editing DV and HDV with iMovie 08": If you shoot FullHD AVCHD or MPEG-2 and plan to export as 1920x1080, you may want to use iMovie 08 only for import, clip selection, and clip trimming. Then, without adding any audio, clip effects (color correction, crop/fill, Ken Burns animations) or any transitions other than Dissolve, export your Project to FCE or FCP.