Canon HV40 discussion thread at DVinfo.net

Chris Hurd · January 5th, 2009, 10:06 AM

Read the HV40 details at this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-v...rs-2009-a.html

Discuss here if you wish...

Eugenia Loli-Queru · January 5th, 2009, 03:34 PM

I am personally disappointed that Canon added true native 24p just to the HV40 rather than the S10/S100 AVCHD cameras -- cameras that are obviously going to have a better image quality (new sensor, new lens, new encoding process that crams more quality at 24mbps than their previous cameras, gain support, and new zebra support -- a first for their AVCHD cameras). So it's like owning a race horse and a donkey, and instead of fixing the shoes on the race horse, you fixing it on the donkey. This is marketing madness, in my opinion.

I am a Canon HV20 user for 1.5 years now. Obviously seeing this classic HV series continuing on with new models (the HV series are possibly the most successful consumer camcorder series ever), brings tears of joy to me. But I am also a hard cold realist and I know where to draw a line between personal emotions and realism. Native 24p and Cinemode should have been a priority to be on their S10/S100 models too, not just in the HV40.

There is not much else to add for the HV40 I am afraid. Except the custom button and the true 24p support, nothing new was added. I mean, it's good to see a refresh, but I ain't gonna buy the HV40 when I already have an HV20 (and a free method to remove pulldown). On the other hand, Canon would have had my money if the S10/S100 had true 24p support and Cinemode, given the fact that the freeware methods of removing pulldown on AVCHD (as opposed to the better-understood and supported HDV footage) are not fool-proof (they quickly introduce A/V sync issues).

EDIT: It *seems* (I have not much info, but this seems to be the case) that Canon moved the Cinemode to the Colors settings in the S10/S100 instead of the main program mode as it is on the HV series. If that's true, that's a good thing. We will have to see...

Tripp Woelfel · January 5th, 2009, 06:41 PM

I think it all depends upon whether you live (or want to live) in a world with or without tape. As someone with seven cams that are all tape I'm good with what Canon has done. If I wanted to move to tapeless, I'd be disappointed too.

Can't say I'll be going tapeless any time soon. It just won't work for what I do for some of the cameras and I don't want a workflow that has to deal with two kinds of footage. That's complexity I do not need. Perhaps tape will last as long as I do. Don't worry... I'm old.

BTW: I will use all seven cameras for many of the motor races I shoot.

Chris Barcellos · January 7th, 2009, 07:19 PM

So has anybody discerned what is meant by true native 24p, as it contrasts with the HV30 and HV20. Because this is HDV, doesn't it still have to have pull down added to conform with HDV standards? Is it possible that the only difference is that the HV40 finally has flags inserted ? Thoughts anyone.

Tripp Woelfel · January 7th, 2009, 07:28 PM

No clue here. I guess I'm the wrong guy to ask though. I thought there there were only two ways to do this, with a pulldown to 60i or real 24p. Oh so much to learn.

Chris Barcellos · January 7th, 2009, 07:46 PM

Yeah, I read Eugenias article at her own blog, and also went to Wikipedia. Canon sites says HV40 will have both "inside 60i stream 24p" and true native 24p. Wikipedia says native 24p is transmitted only over firewire at capture, and that it is actually converted at playback to HDV standards for video outputs from the camera. As far as native 24p, Canon A1 were first to have it, and Sony now have it it the Z7 and Z5u.

Pete Bauer · January 7th, 2009, 08:21 PM

I use Wikipedia all the time, but doesn't always provide a complete discussion and it isn't infallible. The original XL H1 was the first Canon camcorder to record a progressive 24/25/30 fps image to tape, as well as transfer the full frames via 1394 to external devices (computer or another F-Mode capable camera) with Frame Mode. Firewire, aka 1394, just transmits the data; doesn't matter whether the bits represent interlaced or progressive frames. All XL and XH HDV cameras released since then can send a progressive image (Full "Frame Mode" frames) via 1394. Component and HD-SDI out of the cameras is converted to 2:3 60i.

There is an implication in the press release that the 24p of the HV40 is the same as the XL and XH 24F, but I don't know that for a fact (I hate it when my day job gets in the way of reading about new cameras!).

FWIW, I too wish the solid state cameras would get true progressive, although as a Cineform user it isn't that big a deal for me.

Christopher Ruffell · January 9th, 2009, 07:21 PM

Another pioneer HV20 user here. It's nice to see the HV40 update. While it's a neat feature, it's a little late in coming, but I welcome it nonetheless. Still not enough of a reason to upgrade from my HV20. Maybe Canon should focus on that - the HV20/30 filmmaker crowd and make a camera that'll encourage us stalwarts to upgrade. ;) BTW, I shoot uncompressed and with a 35mm adapter with my HV20.

That new HF S10 feature-set looks impressive though! How about that sensor.. I'll be interested in seeing true resolution results and low-light tests. Again though, still not enough to encourage me to buy one.

Joel Peregrine · January 12th, 2009, 10:32 AM

Hi Pete,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Bauer

There is an implication in the press release that the 24p of the HV40 is the same as the XL and XH 24F, but I don't know that for a fact.

Its my understanding that it will now match the settings for the A1's 24F and won't need any transcoding. Fingers crossed. For efficiency I'd sell my 30's to get 40's just so I don't have to tie up a computer for over a day transcoding 4-6 tapes every week.

Jeremiah Rickert · January 12th, 2009, 07:12 PM

Ahh, I've been thinking of picking up an HV30 to use as a second camera with my XHA1, but then of course, Canon had to go and release the XHA1s. I have about $1100.00 in my "buy something fund" but it's sounding like I should wait for the HV40?

Or should I just save a bit longer and buy an XHA1s?

This is a big of a non-sequitur, but Anyone know why most sites sell the HV30 for $799 (and that price is the secret price they can't advertise that you can only see when you add to cart) but B&H has it listed at $599 with free shipping?

Tripp Woelfel · January 13th, 2009, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremiah Rickert

... should I just save a bit longer and buy an XHA1s?

This is a big of a non-sequitur, but Anyone know why most sites sell the HV30 for $799 (and that price is the secret price they can't advertise that you can only see when you add to cart) but B&H has it listed at $599 with free shipping?

I don't know if anyone can answer the first question for you. If you need any of the features the A1s provides, then I think you have your answer. If not, well...

As to your second question, Manufacturers and retailers have agreements that set minimum advertised prices. When the actual selling price is lower the only way let the buyer know is to reveal it in the shopping cart. Why B&H can advertise $599 is beyond me.

Michael Kraus · January 17th, 2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripp Woelfel

Why B&H can advertise $599 is beyond me.

My guess is that everyone is allowed to publicly advertise at $599 (or currently back down to $579) but they leave the "click here to see price" to make people still feel as though they are getting a killer deal.

but who knows....maybe B & H just thinks they are cooler than everyone else.

I frankly don't mind it considering that I am quite possibly going to order an hv30 very soon

Christopher Drews · March 17th, 2009, 02:56 PM

It would be great if the HDMI output could have an embedded 23.98 PsF signal. A discreet Pro-Res capture to an updated Intensity Pro would be an ideal workflow to get around the 4:2:0 compression and also not require a 3:2 removal.

-C

Wolfgang Winne · May 2nd, 2009, 04:48 AM

First HV40 PAL (25i) footage (vs. HV30):

Wolfgangs VideoBlog - Mai 09 (in german)

Justin Thieda · May 20th, 2009, 04:40 PM

I am now rethinking my possible purchase of an HV30 when the price is going up, instead of going down like I had hoped. Although, I guess there will always be the dvinfo classifieds available to me in another 40 days or so. As for now, I figure this trend will probably continue to push new buyers, such as myself, to the HV40 as it's arrival creeps up on us. If I do fall victim to such a move, I do have one question regarding the features of the HV40, which is not so much what it has included, but what might have been taken away? The elder Thieda has been urging me to be weary of such possibilities, so I thought I might post it to see if anyone has seen any of the HV30's options removed from this new model?

Thanks, Justin

January 5th, 2009, 10:06 AM	#1
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Canon HV40 discussion thread Read the HV40 details at this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-v...rs-2009-a.html Discuss here if you wish... __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 5th, 2009, 03:34 PM	#2
Eugenia Loli-Queru Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA, USA Posts: 348	I am personally disappointed that Canon added true native 24p just to the HV40 rather than the S10/S100 AVCHD cameras -- cameras that are obviously going to have a better image quality (new sensor, new lens, new encoding process that crams more quality at 24mbps than their previous cameras, gain support, and new zebra support -- a first for their AVCHD cameras). So it's like owning a race horse and a donkey, and instead of fixing the shoes on the race horse, you fixing it on the donkey. This is marketing madness, in my opinion. I am a Canon HV20 user for 1.5 years now. Obviously seeing this classic HV series continuing on with new models (the HV series are possibly the most successful consumer camcorder series ever), brings tears of joy to me. But I am also a hard cold realist and I know where to draw a line between personal emotions and realism. Native 24p and Cinemode should have been a priority to be on their S10/S100 models too, not just in the HV40. There is not much else to add for the HV40 I am afraid. Except the custom button and the true 24p support, nothing new was added. I mean, it's good to see a refresh, but I ain't gonna buy the HV40 when I already have an HV20 (and a free method to remove pulldown). On the other hand, Canon would have had my money if the S10/S100 had true 24p support and Cinemode, given the fact that the freeware methods of removing pulldown on AVCHD (as opposed to the better-understood and supported HDV footage) are not fool-proof (they quickly introduce A/V sync issues). EDIT: It seems (I have not much info, but this seems to be the case) that Canon moved the Cinemode to the Colors settings in the S10/S100 instead of the main program mode as it is on the HV series. If that's true, that's a good thing. We will have to see... Last edited by Eugenia Loli-Queru; January 5th, 2009 at 04:04 PM. Reason: clarification

January 7th, 2009, 07:19 PM	#4
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	HV40 True 24p So has anybody discerned what is meant by true native 24p, as it contrasts with the HV30 and HV20. Because this is HDV, doesn't it still have to have pull down added to conform with HDV standards? Is it possible that the only difference is that the HV40 finally has flags inserted ? Thoughts anyone. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

January 7th, 2009, 07:46 PM	#6
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Yeah, I read Eugenias article at her own blog, and also went to Wikipedia. Canon sites says HV40 will have both "inside 60i stream 24p" and true native 24p. Wikipedia says native 24p is transmitted only over firewire at capture, and that it is actually converted at playback to HDV standards for video outputs from the camera. As far as native 24p, Canon A1 were first to have it, and Sony now have it it the Z7 and Z5u. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

January 7th, 2009, 08:21 PM	#7
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	I use Wikipedia all the time, but doesn't always provide a complete discussion and it isn't infallible. The original XL H1 was the first Canon camcorder to record a progressive 24/25/30 fps image to tape, as well as transfer the full frames via 1394 to external devices (computer or another F-Mode capable camera) with Frame Mode. Firewire, aka 1394, just transmits the data; doesn't matter whether the bits represent interlaced or progressive frames. All XL and XH HDV cameras released since then can send a progressive image (Full "Frame Mode" frames) via 1394. Component and HD-SDI out of the cameras is converted to 2:3 60i. There is an implication in the press release that the 24p of the HV40 is the same as the XL and XH 24F, but I don't know that for a fact (I hate it when my day job gets in the way of reading about new cameras!). FWIW, I too wish the solid state cameras would get true progressive, although as a Cineform user it isn't that big a deal for me. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

January 5th, 2009, 06:41 PM	#3
Tripp Woelfel Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: North Conway, NH Posts: 1,745	I think it all depends upon whether you live (or want to live) in a world with or without tape. As someone with seven cams that are all tape I'm good with what Canon has done. If I wanted to move to tapeless, I'd be disappointed too. Can't say I'll be going tapeless any time soon. It just won't work for what I do for some of the cameras and I don't want a workflow that has to deal with two kinds of footage. That's complexity I do not need. Perhaps tape will last as long as I do. Don't worry... I'm old. BTW: I will use all seven cameras for many of the motor races I shoot.

January 7th, 2009, 07:28 PM	#5
Tripp Woelfel Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: North Conway, NH Posts: 1,745	No clue here. I guess I'm the wrong guy to ask though. I thought there there were only two ways to do this, with a pulldown to 60i or real 24p. Oh so much to learn.

January 9th, 2009, 07:21 PM	#8
Christopher Ruffell Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 202	Another pioneer HV20 user here. It's nice to see the HV40 update. While it's a neat feature, it's a little late in coming, but I welcome it nonetheless. Still not enough of a reason to upgrade from my HV20. Maybe Canon should focus on that - the HV20/30 filmmaker crowd and make a camera that'll encourage us stalwarts to upgrade. ;) BTW, I shoot uncompressed and with a 35mm adapter with my HV20. That new HF S10 feature-set looks impressive though! How about that sensor.. I'll be interested in seeing true resolution results and low-light tests. Again though, still not enough to encourage me to buy one.

January 12th, 2009, 07:12 PM	#10
Jeremiah Rickert Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Newberg, Oregon Posts: 494	Ahh, I've been thinking of picking up an HV30 to use as a second camera with my XHA1, but then of course, Canon had to go and release the XHA1s. I have about $1100.00 in my "buy something fund" but it's sounding like I should wait for the HV40? Or should I just save a bit longer and buy an XHA1s? This is a big of a non-sequitur, but Anyone know why most sites sell the HV30 for $799 (and that price is the secret price they can't advertise that you can only see when you add to cart) but B&H has it listed at $599 with free shipping?

March 17th, 2009, 02:56 PM	#13
Christopher Drews Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 628	It would be great if the HDMI output could have an embedded 23.98 PsF signal. A discreet Pro-Res capture to an updated Intensity Pro would be an ideal workflow to get around the 4:2:0 compression and also not require a 3:2 removal. -C

May 2nd, 2009, 04:48 AM	#14
Wolfgang Winne Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Bremen, Germany Posts: 176	First HV40 PAL (25i) footage (vs. HV30): Wolfgangs VideoBlog - Mai 09 (in german) __________________ Wolfgang Winne www.ohrwurmaudio.de www.fxsupport.de

May 20th, 2009, 04:40 PM	#15
Justin Thieda New Boot Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hendersonville, NC Posts: 15	Now that the HV40 is due to release. I am now rethinking my possible purchase of an HV30 when the price is going up, instead of going down like I had hoped. Although, I guess there will always be the dvinfo classifieds available to me in another 40 days or so. As for now, I figure this trend will probably continue to push new buyers, such as myself, to the HV40 as it's arrival creeps up on us. If I do fall victim to such a move, I do have one question regarding the features of the HV40, which is not so much what it has included, but what might have been taken away? The elder Thieda has been urging me to be weary of such possibilities, so I thought I might post it to see if anyone has seen any of the HV30's options removed from this new model? Thanks, Justin