Comparison clips: 24p from Canon HG10, HF100

[Chris Hurd]

Here are two .M2TS video clips, each about ten seconds long, recorded in 24p and taken directly from the Canon HG10 and HF100 consumer AVCHD camcorders. Before I reveal the identity of each clip, can you correctly indicate which one is which?

More importantly, can you detect *any* difference in 24p cadence between these two clips?

http://www.dvinfo.net/media/canon/24...814183517.m2ts (14.39MB)
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/canon/24...814183911.m2ts (13.92MB)

This was another "sprinkler pan," a quick and simple test of the AVCHD codec. Both camcorders were set to f/6.7 at 1/48th (yes these are not ideal aperture and shutter values but I did not have the requisite ND filters in hand to properly stop the light down -- as I said, this is just a quick test).

Can anyone suggest a similarly quick and easy subject with which to compare 24p from the HG10 with that of the HF series and other HG series camcorders?

[Konstantin Serafimov]

i think *17.m2ts is hf100 and *11.m2ts is HG10, but I agree on that there is no vosoble difference.
btw, i think the best way to see motion/framerate problems is to point the camera on to street with cars moving raight across the frame.

Well, but to see the samples Chris's samples I just spent an hour on convertin. Actually almost lost hope there, but. There is the freeware conversion windows workaround for smnth like P4 3Hz:

1. Download and install: avisynth, VirtualDub, xvid.
2. download and unpack avchd_convert_v6.zip from http://forum.videohelp.com/topic346331.html (thanks Chris)
3. write, save and execute the make.bat:

for %%a in ("*.mts") do xport -h "%%a" 1 1 1 && ren bits0001.mpa "%%~na.ac3" && ren bits0001.mpv "%%~na.avc"

for %%b in ("*.avc") do DGAVCIndex -i "%%b" -o "%%~nb.dga" -e

for %%c in ("*.ac3") do azid "%%c" "%%~nc.wav"

for %%a in ("*.dga") do @echo loadplugin("dgavcdecode.dll") > "%%~na.avs"
for %%a in ("*.dga") do @echo load_stdcall_plugin("yadif.dll") >> "%%~na.avs"
for %%a in ("*.dga") do @echo loadplugin("audiolimiter.dll") >> "%%~na.avs"
for %%a in ("*.dga") do @echo video=AVCSource("%%a") >> "%%~na.avs"
for %%a in ("*.dga") do @echo audio=wavsource("%%~na.wav").convertaudiotofloat().normalize(0.95).linearlimiter(1.5) >> "%%~na.avs"
for %%a in ("*.dga") do @echo audiodub(video,audio).fadein(45).fadeout(45) >> "%%~na.avs"

for %%a in ("*.dga") do @echo Lanczos4Resize(1280,720) >> "%%~na.avs"

(ok, audio strings could be removed too)

4. Open the *.avs file in VirtualDub, end encode the movie with high quality xvid settings without sound.

I've got about 47MB for *11.m2ts and 60Mb for *17.m2ts playng smoothly on my PC.

regards

[Jason Spivey]

Honestly I cant notice a difference then again Im a noob at this stuff. Just to guess the HG10 file is thre first one.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Konstantin Serafimov

i think the best way to see motion/framerate problems is to point the camera on to street with cars moving raight across the frame.

You are correct. To see cadence differences you need long clips with smooth linear motion at a variety of speeds. (Shooting an intersection with stop lights gives you a whole range of motion!)

Chris, you needn't publish these long clips. Just tell how they look on a big screen.

PS: It would be nice to have some clips with 2-3 pulldown removed.

[Tom Roper]

Don't reveal answer yet Chris, I want to look at them!

Been preoccupied, house struck by lightning at 4:15 am, no one injured but $20-30k property damage. News truck showed up almost before emergency responders, it was the leading story on the 5 pm chan 7 news, and on the website most of the day. (Slow news day). The lightning blew hole in roof and wall 10 feet from where we sleep. Buying lottery ticket now. Ciao.

[Jurij Turnsek]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Don't reveal answer yet Chris, I want to look at them!

Been preoccupied, house struck by lightning at 4:15 am, no one injured but $20-30k property damage. News truck showed up almost before emergency responders, it was the leading story on the 5 pm chan 7 news, and on the website most of the day. (Slow news day). The lightning blew hole in roof and wall 10 feet from where we sleep. Buying lottery ticket now. Ciao.

Wow, that must suck. We had a pretty intense storm yesterday night too, but luckly the only casualtiey were mom's flowers...

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Don't reveal answer yet Chris, I want to look at them!

Been preoccupied, house struck by lightning at 4:15 am, no one injured but $20-30k property damage. News truck showed up almost before emergency responders, it was the leading story on the 5 pm chan 7 news, and on the website most of the day. (Slow news day). The lightning blew hole in roof and wall 10 feet from where we sleep. Buying lottery ticket now. Ciao.

Yowser! Glad to hear nobody was hurt Tom. Property can always be replaced, but being set back $20-30k might delay your next camera purchase a couple of weeks! :)

Best of luck putting things back together. Time to check the integrity of the grounding in the house.

[Tom Roper]

I could not spot a difference in the cadence of the clips. I don't know which clip belongs to which camera. Clip #911 used a bit more Scotts Turf builder...



And thanks for the kind words. Hopefully insurance will cover some of it. It did blow out a vintage Carver amplifier and some JBL active powered studio monitors, cell phone charger, phone line, killed the satellite dish, garage door opener. It didn't set the house on fire or destroy the house wiring. It did burn a few ground wires, arc'd around inside the breaker panel. It blew out some recessed lighting fixtures, hanging from the wires, cracked a window. Pieces of concrete roofing tiles were blown into the street, the backyard, neighboring yards. Other people in the neighborhood not struck still got some damaged electronics.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

And thanks for the kind words. Hopefully insurance will cover some of it. It did blow out a vintage Carver amplifier and some JBL active powered studio monitors, cell phone charger, phone line, killed the satellite dish, garage door opener. It didn't set the house on fire or destroy the house wiring. It did burn a few ground wires, arc'd around inside the breaker panel. It blew out some recessed lighting fixtures, hanging from the wires, cracked a window. Pieces of concrete roofing tiles were blown into the street, the backyard, neighboring yards. Other people in the neighborhood not struck still got some damaged electronics.

I seem to recall Rush Limbaugh talking about a lightning hit to his Florida house in which every plasma, LCD and other piece of electronics was totally destroyed. Of course for him it was no biggie. Surge protectors won't do anything for that kind of hit.

[Tom Roper]

I was wondering about surge protectors, if my plasmas had them built in ("movs" - metal oxide varistors), they probably are gone now and vulnerable to the next surge or spike. I should probably seek out something for them.

[Ken Ross]

Pretty amazing that your plasmas weren't 'sacrificed'.

[Tom Roper]

I'm worried about them because the electrician said his experience in the restoration field was that you should claim all your electronics on your insurance because there can be hidden damage that doesn't appear right away, or that it will fail later.

I just don't know how you prove that when it's still working...

[Dave Blackhurst]

Tom - if you suffered a direct hit or even one in close proximity, claim EVERYTHING ELECTRONIC. Or at least test everything before you decide it's "OK". Typically if it survived and still functions, it "should" be OK, but as you note, a close hit can do some damage and weaken electronic components.

I've had a couple near field hits - one took out my parent's newer audio and DVD player but left the old TV's and other stuff working just fine... 4 year old peed himself when that one hit... I almost did too.

Second near field hit during the same storm at my place a couple miles away... freaked my wife out pretty good (she tells me she's been almost struck 3 times... going to avoid her during electrical storms...) scrambled the thermostat (battery powered, not connected to any electricity except through the HVAC unit), AND did some damage to a camcorder that was sitting out - suddenly had CCD failure problems...

EVERYTHING else I had on surge supressors (always a prudent plan - stops a surge from coming through the electrical lines in a direct hit like you're describing), but having witnessed firsthand that delicate elctronics can suffer from what I'd describe as an electrical discharge in the AIR in close proximity, I'd say take the time to go through every electronic item you've got!

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

I'm worried about them because the electrician said his experience in the restoration field was that you should claim all your electronics on your insurance because there can be hidden damage that doesn't appear right away, or that it will fail later.

I just don't know how you prove that when it's still working...

I've heard the same thing, but I have no idea how you claim damage to a 'perfectly' functioning piece of electronics. Probably just the process of going on record is a good idea.

[Mike Gunter]

Hi Chris,

Both clips look to be pretty much the same. XXX17 is somewhat better exposed, so I'm going to vote for it.

I used Procoder 3 to convert both clips using the Automatic Inverse Telecine option to 24p - it seemed to work - Vegas Pro 8 reports the finished product as a progressive scan MPEG file. I'm somewhat unclear as to which settings to use - if automatic is working, I'll let it go.

Premiere Pro CS3 is the same. It cuts the same MPEG files, too - unfortunately it doesn't do AVCHD at all right now, so I have to convert them with Procoder or TMPGEnc - either works great.

The HF100 continues to impress.

My guess is based on better exposure, but that is pretty lame.

+++++++

For Tom,

Tough break... Glad everyone is okay.

My best to all,

Mike