New Canon AVCHD units - HF11 and HG21

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by John Palaganas

Hmm, has anyone ever done extensive analysis on how HDV and AVCHD quality compares???

My story on H.264 and MPEG-2 appears in the next/current issue of Broadcast Engineering.

You've got to factor in AVCHD use of FullHD vs HDV's use of 1440x1080. The two match each other at about 16.5Mbps so 21 to 24 is about 32Mbps. Almost XDCAM EX HQ and just a bit more than my JVC HD7.

[Ethan Cooper]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

My story on H.264 and MPEG-2 appears in the next/current issue of Broadcast Engineering.

You've got to factor in AVCHD use of FullHD vs HDV's use of 1440x1080. The two match each other at about 16.5Mbps so 21 to 24 is about 32Mbps. Almost XDCAM EX HQ and just a bit more than my JVC HD7.

Hurray for solid numbers.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

I'm going to make an assumption here that may get me in trouble, but is it possible that the AVCHD codec wasn't quite as efficient as they once thought? I remember it supposedly being comparable quality of HDV at roughly half the bit rate, but if that were true, why would all these companies feel the need to release a 24mbps version? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for higher quality recording options, but as I understood it AVCHD was billed as the HDV successor for typeless acquisition due to it's smaller bit-rates.

It probably does do it in half the bit-rate on the ambarella codec hardware based cameras more often. The problem is that to more efficiently encode with H264 you not only need the expertise, but also the processing power. I don't think that AVCHD started off with leading edge solutions because the power consumption and heat production of a fully efficient 24mb/s codec would be too great a few years ago. I think it is obvious that companies like Canon might be catching up in efficiency, and of bit-rate over the years. The guys at ambarella, on the other hand, had lots of experience, even on the video side, and a leading edge processing to power consumption solution to start with. I've been reading up on the story behind them.

While I wait for a Red Scarlet (Jim, where and when can I test over here) I am actually looking at a 11+mb/s Ambarella based camera for 720p. We have been having some success (whining) in getting the bit-rate on hybrid pocket cameras up enough to eliminate low bit-rate codec artifacts with suitable quality, and handle motion better, which makes it suitable for consumer shooting. I love doing it, because it points things out and gets better cameras into users hands.

What I am going to say, that's controversial, is that the top end for data rates for consumer video should be close to Blu-ray's, and XDCAM HD 35mb/s mode. While you can eliminate codec issues at 12mb/s for a certain resolution a frame rate, there is more to video than that. A higher data rate means that the camera also does not have to visually reduce the differences between adjacent pixels, flatten the colors, or reduce the detail so much, making a moire striking picture, and enables it to handle low light noise better. It just so happens that at this level it also suites some videographers. In defence of the camera industry, I still think 50mb/s+ (Mpeg2) is a good professional level (Full 1080i).


Steve,

Have you tried different h264 cameras set to the same DOF and SNR characteristics? I would not be surprised if you would still get a wide range in results between h264 models even now (though not on test charts and static scenes).

[Robert M Wright]

Is there going to be an HF110?

[Chris Hurd]

Meaning, is there going to be a 24mbps version of the HF100 (identical to the HF10 but card slot only, no built-in flash memory). Good question. I have no idea what their road map looks like. It's been a year since the HG10, so I kind of expected the updated HG21, but the HF11 is a bit of a surprise since the HF series was just introduced earlier this year at CES. They've only been shipping for just a few months.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

It probably does do it in half the bit-rate on the ambarella codec hardware based cameras more often. The problem is that to more efficiently encode with H264 you not only need the expertise, but also the processing power. I don't think that AVCHD started off with leading edge solutions because the power consumption and heat production of a fully efficient 24mb/s codec would be too great a few years ago. I think it is obvious that companies like Canon might be catching up in efficiency, and of bit-rate over the years.

You nailed it. H.264 has a whole bunch of encoding tools in its TOOLKIT that MAY be used if your chip has the power. Which in turn means your camcorder can dissipate the heat and have enough battery power.

For example, Sony supports the MAIN profile while Canon supports the HIGH profile. Only the latter can use 4x4 macroblocks on fine detail. Perhaps this is why the Canon rez charts show greater rez.

The Canon at 24Mbps is very likely to match the $4,200 Panasonic simple because a 2.8MP Bayer filter is approx equal to 3 960x540 chips. Bayer down-samples by a factor of ALMOST 4 so one can think of it as 3 700,000 pixel sensors. Which isn't that far from the native 520,000 of the Panasonic, which is up-sampled.

[Ken Hodson]

These new cams sound very intriguing, and I hope they work out. Canon has clearly run with the ball in the prosumer, and semi-prosumer markets. From the numbers alone it would seem this new higher bit-rate format(yes it is all about the encoder, but it is a big jump) should really be an advantage. Hopefully hardware costs (cheap lens, ect...) don't hold it back. To me the worst case scenario is > the HV20/30 but with modern storage. Yeah!! Big thumbs up. We will find out soon enough, and I know this will be the place for the most scrutinizing comparisons.
Looking forward, big time!

[Wayne Morellini]

Is there any indication that this camera supports 1080p60 or p50? It is not clear from the pages wherever this might be possible.

I am more interested in p50/60 these days for transfer between frame rate formats, but most cameras only do interlace. Though I don't think it will steer me away from the ambarella with the Scarlet coming.

Steve, I think ambarella uses high profile too. It is a shame Sony is doing this.

There is a footage comparison at dv.com between Sony V1, Samsung 1080p camcorder (Sony sensor) and Canon HV camera you might like to look at. It is one of the columnists, but can't remember his name.

[Steve Mullen]

Did anybody notice the error in max time at 24Mbps between 32GB and 16GB on the translated HF11?

Although the HF11 has 32GB internally (almost 3 hours at MA) -- there aren't any 32GB cards you can buy, are there? If 16GB costs $200, to get another 1.5 hours, then thethe HG21 seems a good buy with 5-hours and a VF and still the option for a card -- like for skydiving.

And does this mean 24Mbps AVCHD can't be played on BD players?

"DW-100 mode, using the MXP (about 24 Mbps) is recorded on the disc, DW-100 can only play."

[Robert M Wright]

Newegg has a couple 32GB SDHC cards listed now (class 4). 16GB SDHC cards can be purchased for a lot less than $200 also (closer to $50 for low cost cards).

[Chris Hurd]

Is there any indication that this camera supports 1080p60 or p50?

These cameras record 1080i60, 1080p30 and 1080p24 in the Japanese and North American markets, and 1080i50 and 1080p25 in versions bought in Europe and Australia.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

there aren't any 32GB cards you can buy, are there? If 16GB costs $200...

Delkin offers a Class 4 32GB SDHC card for $180 at B&H.

Panasonic's 32GB SDHC card is Class 6 and quite pricey, $395 at B&H.

The 16GB cards do not cost $200 anymore. Panasonic's Class 6 16GB SDHC card is now $130 while Kingston's Class 4 16GB SDHC card is just $110 (both through B&H). The Class 4 cards will easily handle Full HD at the 17mbps FXP mode, and the indications I read from the translated text of the Japanese press release (linked in second post of this thread) are that Class 4 should be able to handle Full HD at 24mbps as well. I expect Kingston to offer a 32GB SDHC card in Class 4 or 6 very soon.

[Robert M Wright]

A freshly formatted Class 4 SDHC card should be able to keep up with 24mbps, but it is cutting things close. Kingston 32GB Class 4 cards are being sold now.

[Chris Hurd]

Thanks, serves me right for not taking your cue and checking NewEgg. Sure enough, they have the Kingston 32GB Class 4 SDHC for just under $150. And a PNY, also 32GB Class 4, for $130. I'll bet Kingston will have their Class 6 out by the time the HF11 ships.

[James Duffy]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

The 16GB cards do not cost $200 anymore. Panasonic's Class 6 16GB SDHC card is now $130 while Kingston's Class 4 16GB SDHC card is just $110 (both through B&H).

http://www.amazon.com/Transcend-16GB...6941205&sr=8-2

"Transcend 16GB SDHC CARD (SD 2.0 SPD CLASS 6) with Compact Card Reader" -- $52.90

I've been using one of these for a while now on a Canon TX1 (pocket camera/camcorder) with no issues. Is there a reason one would pay twice as much for one of the models you listed, or is it just brand recognition? I was planning on buying a pair of the Transcends with whichever camera I go with.

Good thing I didn't get around to buying the HF100 yet. This is perfect timing for me.