Preferred shooting mode with HV30? at DVinfo.net

Scott Hamilton · May 29th, 2008, 09:53 PM

So I just began shooting with my HV30 today, and I really like it, but I am a little concerned about a few things... hopefully someone can clear things up.

I was most excited about was being able to shoot 30p and 24p.
I understand that the computer will read all formats as 60i (using FCE), and that to edit in true 24fps, you must do the reverse telecine... but if you can't do that, and therefor can't edit in 24fps, should you avoid shooting in 24p? Because watching 24p playback on my HD TV straight from the camera gave me a little bit of a headache... it felt like there was way too much motion blur. Anyone else experience this? And even watching the playback on 30p was a bit jerky, although it looked much better on the computer (20 inch iMac) than it did on the TV.

Like most around here, I am hoping to achieve a decent film look, but I'm wondering if this 24p Cinema mode is really the way to go, or if it is just something that looked fancy on the box... Nothing against the camera, like I said I really love a lot of things about it... I'd just like to know if 24p is supposed to be so jerky, and blurry. Any thoughts?

Scott

Nelson Cole · May 30th, 2008, 03:04 AM

Scott, I got my HV30 the day after you, it seems, and also wonder if it's worth shooting in 24p if I edit with Final Cut Express. I'll be following the replies. What about 30p?

Glyn Williams · May 30th, 2008, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hamilton

Like most around here, I am hoping to achieve a decent film look, but I'm wondering if this 24p Cinema mode is really the way to go, or if it is just something that looked fancy on the box... Nothing against the camera, like I said I really love a lot of things about it... I'd just like to know if 24p is supposed to be so jerky, and blurry. Any thoughts?

Scott

Scott, I think it is worth it, but they certainly did not make it easy.

Small errors can be made in shooting, camera settings, exposure duration, capture and conversion. Any one of which will make the 24p footage look like ass.

Here's a short example of getting it right. In my humble opinion.

http://homepage.mac.com/brilliantdig.../Piano720p.mp4

Scott Hamilton · May 30th, 2008, 07:30 AM

Wow that piano clip looked great, and certainly not like what I shot. I was just walking around the house those and doing some pan type shots that I wouldn't do while filming, so I guess thats where most of my blur came in.

It feels to me as if 24p has a slower shutter speed (ie more motion blur). If I were filming a movie that required more camera movement (like following a rollerblader down a hill), could I get away with the 30p setting? The goal is still to look like film, but 30p looks like it has a fast shutter speed which would be easier to use with fast moving shots.

One more thing on the piano... did you do the reverse telecine or is that just straight from the HV30?

Scott

Glyn Williams · May 30th, 2008, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hamilton

Wow that piano clip looked great, and certainly not like what I shot. I was just walking around the house those and doing some pan type shots that I wouldn't do while filming, so I guess thats where most of my blur came in.

It feels to me as if 24p has a slower shutter speed (ie more motion blur). If I were filming a movie that required more camera movement (like following a rollerblader down a hill), could I get away with the 30p setting? The goal is still to look like film, but 30p looks like it has a fast shutter speed which would be easier to use with fast moving shots.

One more thing on the piano... did you do the reverse telecine or is that just straight from the HV30?

Scott

In the electronic world 30p is easier to deal with. But me, I like messing with 24p. Remember that all action movies are shot in 24p and seem to cope well enough with fast action.

The piano clip above was shot in 24p and then reverse-telecined.

Shutter speed and frame rate are not the same thing. You could shoot at 24p and have the shutter open for only 1/1000s. Or you could shoot at 30p and have the shutter open for the whole 1/30s.

The most movie-like footage seems to occur when the shutter is open for half of the frame duration. So at 24fps the shutter should be 1/48s.

There are various tricks to get the HV20 to into an optimal filmlike mode.

Glyn

Taky Cheung · May 30th, 2008, 10:42 AM

I shoot mostly in 30p just because I don't want to deal with pulldown removal. 30p has that film look, no interlace comb lines and no reverse telecine process. Then when output to DVD, don't have to telecine again for NTSC playback.

Scott Hamilton · May 30th, 2008, 11:15 AM

Glyn, I see what you mean about the action movie thing... and that's definitely what we are going for... but would you still recommend 24p even if I can't do the reverse telecine? (from what I gather it can't be done in FCE?)

Oh, and any advice on these various tricks to get the HV30 in optimal film mode?

Scott

By the way, if anyone is interested, here is a fight scene from an action film (Batman) we are just finishing up on our old standard def camera:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iPYriqAGOGE

Glyn Williams · June 1st, 2008, 03:32 AM

Reverse Telecine needs software
On the Mac there is Compressor 3 - part of Final Cut Studio
and there is JES Deinterlacer which is free.
there may be more.

The real problem for you is...
Can you edit a 24p project on FCE? I have not seen a clear answer on that.

The most film-like settings for the HV20 are
24p shooting.
1/48s exposure duration.
Widest possible aperture.
No electronic gain.
Low camera shake (because of the rolling shutter issue) so use a tripod / monopod.

Because the camera is not fully manual, you have to trick the automatic settings into giving you what you want.

There are lots of articles and YouTube videos showing variations on the process.Here is one.

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/article.php/8

But Google more for yourself.

Chris Barcellos · June 1st, 2008, 03:02 PM

Those of us using the HV20 have dealt with this issue for a year.

First thing to understand about 24p is camera movement has to be planned to avoid the stutters. Any camera shooting 24fps will show similar issues on pans.

Second thing is to shoot a 1/48th shutter speed. This emulates a 180 degree shutter of a film camera and is the best combination of motion blur for smoother looking 24p.

Third is to use the Cine mode, rather than in TV or A modes. In this mode you will lose control of shutter and aperature, but if you review HV20 thread you will learn the camera tries like heck to stay at 1/48th. And you can check it before shooting by depressing the snapshot button part way and you will see what shutter speed and aperature are set at. Then do adjust, you toggle to the exposure, and raise and lower exposure, and check with that method above.

Fourth, on the PC I use Cineform HDV. Set up properly, it captures and converts everything to a true 24p avi file. I understand it is available for MAC too, now, so it should work the same. The files produces are 3x larger, but a lot less lossy than editing in HDV. I highly recommend it.

May 29th, 2008, 09:53 PM	#1
Scott Hamilton Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 101	Preferred shooting mode with HV30? So I just began shooting with my HV30 today, and I really like it, but I am a little concerned about a few things... hopefully someone can clear things up. I was most excited about was being able to shoot 30p and 24p. I understand that the computer will read all formats as 60i (using FCE), and that to edit in true 24fps, you must do the reverse telecine... but if you can't do that, and therefor can't edit in 24fps, should you avoid shooting in 24p? Because watching 24p playback on my HD TV straight from the camera gave me a little bit of a headache... it felt like there was way too much motion blur. Anyone else experience this? And even watching the playback on 30p was a bit jerky, although it looked much better on the computer (20 inch iMac) than it did on the TV. Like most around here, I am hoping to achieve a decent film look, but I'm wondering if this 24p Cinema mode is really the way to go, or if it is just something that looked fancy on the box... Nothing against the camera, like I said I really love a lot of things about it... I'd just like to know if 24p is supposed to be so jerky, and blurry. Any thoughts? Scott

May 30th, 2008, 10:42 AM	#6
Taky Cheung Inner Circle Join Date: May 2007 Location: Los Angeles, USA Posts: 2,114	I shoot mostly in 30p just because I don't want to deal with pulldown removal. 30p has that film look, no interlace comb lines and no reverse telecine process. Then when output to DVD, don't have to telecine again for NTSC playback. __________________ LA Color Pros Blog RODE Authorized Reseller . Comer LED Camera Lights . TakyBox HTML5 Menu Generator

June 1st, 2008, 03:02 PM	#9
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Those of us using the HV20 have dealt with this issue for a year. First thing to understand about 24p is camera movement has to be planned to avoid the stutters. Any camera shooting 24fps will show similar issues on pans. Second thing is to shoot a 1/48th shutter speed. This emulates a 180 degree shutter of a film camera and is the best combination of motion blur for smoother looking 24p. Third is to use the Cine mode, rather than in TV or A modes. In this mode you will lose control of shutter and aperature, but if you review HV20 thread you will learn the camera tries like heck to stay at 1/48th. And you can check it before shooting by depressing the snapshot button part way and you will see what shutter speed and aperature are set at. Then do adjust, you toggle to the exposure, and raise and lower exposure, and check with that method above. Fourth, on the PC I use Cineform HDV. Set up properly, it captures and converts everything to a true 24p avi file. I understand it is available for MAC too, now, so it should work the same. The files produces are 3x larger, but a lot less lossy than editing in HDV. I highly recommend it. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

May 30th, 2008, 03:04 AM	#2
Nelson Cole Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Skowhegan, Maine Posts: 70	Scott, I got my HV30 the day after you, it seems, and also wonder if it's worth shooting in 24p if I edit with Final Cut Express. I'll be following the replies. What about 30p?

May 30th, 2008, 07:30 AM	#4
Scott Hamilton Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 101	Wow that piano clip looked great, and certainly not like what I shot. I was just walking around the house those and doing some pan type shots that I wouldn't do while filming, so I guess thats where most of my blur came in. It feels to me as if 24p has a slower shutter speed (ie more motion blur). If I were filming a movie that required more camera movement (like following a rollerblader down a hill), could I get away with the 30p setting? The goal is still to look like film, but 30p looks like it has a fast shutter speed which would be easier to use with fast moving shots. One more thing on the piano... did you do the reverse telecine or is that just straight from the HV30? Scott

May 30th, 2008, 11:15 AM	#7
Scott Hamilton Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 101	Glyn, I see what you mean about the action movie thing... and that's definitely what we are going for... but would you still recommend 24p even if I can't do the reverse telecine? (from what I gather it can't be done in FCE?) Oh, and any advice on these various tricks to get the HV30 in optimal film mode? Scott By the way, if anyone is interested, here is a fight scene from an action film (Batman) we are just finishing up on our old standard def camera: http://youtube.com/watch?v=iPYriqAGOGE

June 1st, 2008, 03:32 AM	#8
Glyn Williams New Boot Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sheffield, England Posts: 22	Reverse Telecine needs software On the Mac there is Compressor 3 - part of Final Cut Studio and there is JES Deinterlacer which is free. there may be more. The real problem for you is... Can you edit a 24p project on FCE? I have not seen a clear answer on that. The most film-like settings for the HV20 are 24p shooting. 1/48s exposure duration. Widest possible aperture. No electronic gain. Low camera shake (because of the rolling shutter issue) so use a tripod / monopod. Because the camera is not fully manual, you have to trick the automatic settings into giving you what you want. There are lots of articles and YouTube videos showing variations on the process.Here is one. http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/article.php/8 But Google more for yourself.