HV30, 24p mode... at DVinfo.net

Scott Hamilton · May 27th, 2008, 08:11 PM

Hey guys, I've got a few questions about the HV30 and the Cinema mode. I've been reading through old posts for HOURS on the problems with the HV20 and editing with FC in true 24p... But these posts are over a year old, so I was wondering if some of these problems have been solved. I'm pretty new to the camera world, so be gentle... here we go!

First off, I just bought a JVC GZHD7 from Best Buy, but since have become interested in the HV30 for its Cinema mode. I will be using the camera for independent film making, so the more it looks like film, the better! To anyone that doesn't know about the problems with the HV20, when filming in 24p mode, Final Cut would capture the footage as 60i, meaning you would have to go back and manually convert each clip down to true 24p... But I did read about JES which apparently makes things much easier!

So anyways, my question is, is that something that was fixed with the HV30? If you film in 24p, will it capture in Final Cut as 24p, or do you still have to convert it? And further, if the conversion is still necessary, can it be done with Final Cut Express? It seems like most everyone was talking about using FCP, but I have FCE 4. Could I still convert?

I have a ton of more questions, but for the sake of keeping this as short as possible, I'll just throw out a few more... If film is the desired effect, does cinema mode really look that good? Is it worth me exchanging the JVC for the Canon? If it is, I'll do it in a heartbeat! Also, if you shoot in standard 60i (not using cinema mode), is it still possible to convert down to 24p? (thinking about just doing that with my JVC if possible).

Sorry for the lengthy post, and sorry for the elementary nature of some of these question, but like I said, I'm new! Thanks in advance,

Scott
www.savetheempirevideos.com

Tsu Terao · May 27th, 2008, 08:42 PM

If you have FCE and HV30, you could see if 30p would suit you, as it doesn't require pulldown removal.

Also, don't confuse 24p and cine mode - they are independent settings that can be combined or not.

Christopher Drews · May 27th, 2008, 09:08 PM

First, from my research and experience with HDV in general, a typical 2:3:2:3 (24p) pulldown is NOT applied to the HV20/30 - instead the frames can simply be dropped rather than de-interlaced. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend JES de-interlacer (however this would be a good option if you used the Canon XL2 @ 24p).

I hope that helps avoid confusion.

Here is my workflow with the HV20.
1) Record footage w/ Cinemode and Exposure lock.
2) Digitize via Firewire in Final Cut Pro (HDV clips are split for Rec. I/O).
3) Import HDV footage into After Effects CS3 and make a new comp - setting it to 23.976 fps.
4) Assemble split clips into Comp.
5) Move com to render queue and set the output module to Pro-Res 422
6) Import completed 23.98 clip into Final Cut Pro for editing.

As you'll find here, many people are not happy about the HDV codec for obvious reasons. Indeed, when you capture HDV via firewire, without a 3rd party application (ie - cineform) or an expensive deck [SDI / AES] you'll be stuck in a 60i stream (29.97). So, final cut express will not allow you true 24p playback/editing - you'll need to treat the HDV video as listed above.

Your last question about shooting 60i and dropping frames to 24. This has never looked good to me and in my opinion can never pass for 24 fps because of the 180 degree shutter angle. But yes, this is possible and has been done before 24p was readily available to the consumer market.

Anyway, good luck in your shooting adventures and hope this helps.
-C

Scott Hamilton · May 27th, 2008, 11:13 PM

Good call about differentiated CINE mode, and cinema mode (which is actually shooting 24p)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Drews

First, from my research and experience with HDV in general, a typical 2:3:2:3 (24p) pulldown is NOT applied to the HV20/30 - instead the frames can simply be dropped rather than de-interlaced. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend JES de-interlacer (however this would be a good option if you used the Canon XL2 @ 24p).

I hope that helps avoid confusion.

Hey Christopher, thanks for the response, but I'm still a little unclear. So you're saying with the HV30, I don't have to use JES? What exactly is different about the Canon XL2 that requires it? And when you say frame can simply be dropped... (keep in mind, simply means two different things to me and you!) How will I edit at 24fps with the HV30 and FCE without cineform or an expensive deck? If possible?

Scott

Scott Hamilton · May 27th, 2008, 11:29 PM

Oh and also, I noticed you use After Effects in your workflow... I don't have after effects, can you do it without it?

Scott

Glyn Williams · May 28th, 2008, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hamilton

Oh and also, I noticed you use After Effects in your workflow... I don't have after effects, can you do it without it?

Scott

The trickiest part in this process is taking the 60i container and getting out the 24p footage.

If you have FCS, you can use Compressor 3 to perform the "Reverse-Telecine" step.

Here's Apple's page on it.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306389

Glyn

Scott Hamilton · May 28th, 2008, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glyn Williams

The trickiest part in this process is taking the 60i container and getting out the 24p footage.

If you have FCS, you can use Compressor 3 to perform the "Reverse-Telecine" step.

Here's Apple's page on it.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306389

Glyn

Glyn,

Can this be done in Final Express 4? If not, does anyone have a workflow for HV30/FCE4? (crossing my fingers!)

Scott Hamilton · May 28th, 2008, 10:44 AM

Ok, found some more on the topic... hope someone tells me these guys are wrong...

http://www.hv20.com/archive/index.php?t-445.html

Christopher Drews · May 28th, 2008, 11:02 AM

The XL2 is Standard Defination vs HV20/30 which is HDV. XL2 has a pulldown pattern [24p or 24pA]- HDV just adds frames to the fill the stream. Does this make sense? JES, I believe, works under the assumption that you are de-interlacing rather than just removing excess frames.

Pertaining to your question - honestly, FCE isn't my idea of a decent editor, as you'll have to find a workaround for everything included in Studio. Also, there are so many features and applications lacking.

The bottom line - if you don't have a third party application, hardware or comrpressor, QuickTime Pro, AE or the like, you cannot edit in true 24p. You must treat the footage elsewhere before you bring it into FCE.

-C

Glyn Williams · May 28th, 2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hamilton

Glyn,

Can this be done in Final Express 4? If not, does anyone have a workflow for HV30/FCE4? (crossing my fingers!)

The reverse-telecine step can be achieved with JES Deinterlacer, instead of Compressor3.

But I am not sure whether FCE can edit a 24p project.

If you find this frustrating, I agree! I think the entire consumer video market continues to create products which don't really meet consumer needs.

C.

Scott Hamilton · May 28th, 2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Drews

The XL2 is Standard Defination vs HV20/30 which is HDV. XL2 has a pulldown pattern [24p or 24pA]- HDV just adds frames to the fill the stream. Does this make sense? JES, I believe, works under the assumption that you are de-interlacing rather than just removing excess frames.

Pertaining to your question - honestly, FCE isn't my idea of a decent editor, as you'll have to find a workaround for everything included in Studio. Also, there are so many features and applications lacking.

The bottom line - if you don't have a third party application, hardware or comrpressor, QuickTime Pro, AE or the like, you cannot edit in true 24p. You must treat the footage elsewhere before you bring it into FCE.

-C

That makes sense now, thanks. So are you saying Quicktime pro serves as one of these 3rd party applications? This quicktime pro?

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...nMore=D3380Z/A

Cause for 30 bucks, I'm there!

And Glyn, yes I agree, frustrating! Damn the consumer market... But tell me if this works (probably not, as it is just too easy...) While playing around in FCE, in Easy Setup (under the FCE menu), you can set the import settings as follows:

Format: HD
Uses: HDV Apple Intermediate Codec 1080i60
Rate: (all rates)

On rate you can also select 29.97 or 25 for PAL... but doesn't "all rates" include 23.98 fps? For video output it says "same as playback". Well if recording on the HV30 in 24p, shouldn't I be able to edit the same way under "all rates"?? Too easy?!?!

Scott

Christopher Drews · May 28th, 2008, 02:32 PM

I've never done it but I assume with QuickTime pro, you could open your HDV file captured by FCE and hit "Apple+E" and export as Pro-Res 422 @ 23.98. Since QuickTime Pro is the same module used to for export via QuickTime components in the suite.

Honestly, everyone should buy QuickTime Pro as an essential tool for exporting and making quick edits.

-C

Scott Hamilton · May 28th, 2008, 03:04 PM

Good enough for me, I will try it out, and if it doesn't work, oh well I've been needing to buy pro anyway... I'm exchanging the HD7 for the HV30 today and I will report back as soon as I test it!

Now, if I can successfully convert it in Quicktime Pro, I wonder if FCE will be able to use a 23.98 fps timeline?

Scott

Glyn Williams · May 28th, 2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Drews

I've never done it but I assume with QuickTime pro, you could open your HDV file captured by FCE and hit "Apple+E" and export as Pro-Res 422 @ 23.98. Since QuickTime Pro is the same module used to for export via QuickTime components in the suite.

Honestly, everyone should buy QuickTime Pro as an essential tool for exporting and making quick edits.

-C

I'm pretty certain that will not work.
Going from 60i to 24p requires a reverse telecine.
Reverse telecine means taking alternate lines of interlace and splitting them into different frames. This is not something built into Quicktime Pro. Compressor3 does do it. JES Deinterlacer does it too. And that's a free download.

Without access to the software, its hard to say whether FCE supports 24p.
It does however support 25p for the PAL market. So there may be a close enough option.

Christopher Drews · May 28th, 2008, 04:38 PM

I am almost certain that reverse telecine is something for interlaced video (with pulldown added [2:3:2:3 or 2:3:3:2]) and different than what the HV20/30's Frame Mode does when it creates HDV. I believe HDV just adds frames without pulldown which can be removed as simply as specifying the designated frame rate (ie - from 29.97 to 23.98) and recompressing all the frames to a QuickTime file. Am I mistaken?

-C

May 27th, 2008, 08:11 PM	#1
Scott Hamilton Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 101	HV30, 24p mode... Hey guys, I've got a few questions about the HV30 and the Cinema mode. I've been reading through old posts for HOURS on the problems with the HV20 and editing with FC in true 24p... But these posts are over a year old, so I was wondering if some of these problems have been solved. I'm pretty new to the camera world, so be gentle... here we go! First off, I just bought a JVC GZHD7 from Best Buy, but since have become interested in the HV30 for its Cinema mode. I will be using the camera for independent film making, so the more it looks like film, the better! To anyone that doesn't know about the problems with the HV20, when filming in 24p mode, Final Cut would capture the footage as 60i, meaning you would have to go back and manually convert each clip down to true 24p... But I did read about JES which apparently makes things much easier! So anyways, my question is, is that something that was fixed with the HV30? If you film in 24p, will it capture in Final Cut as 24p, or do you still have to convert it? And further, if the conversion is still necessary, can it be done with Final Cut Express? It seems like most everyone was talking about using FCP, but I have FCE 4. Could I still convert? I have a ton of more questions, but for the sake of keeping this as short as possible, I'll just throw out a few more... If film is the desired effect, does cinema mode really look that good? Is it worth me exchanging the JVC for the Canon? If it is, I'll do it in a heartbeat! Also, if you shoot in standard 60i (not using cinema mode), is it still possible to convert down to 24p? (thinking about just doing that with my JVC if possible). Sorry for the lengthy post, and sorry for the elementary nature of some of these question, but like I said, I'm new! Thanks in advance, Scott www.savetheempirevideos.com

May 27th, 2008, 09:08 PM	#3
Christopher Drews Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 628	First, from my research and experience with HDV in general, a typical 2:3:2:3 (24p) pulldown is NOT applied to the HV20/30 - instead the frames can simply be dropped rather than de-interlaced. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend JES de-interlacer (however this would be a good option if you used the Canon XL2 @ 24p). I hope that helps avoid confusion. Here is my workflow with the HV20. 1) Record footage w/ Cinemode and Exposure lock. 2) Digitize via Firewire in Final Cut Pro (HDV clips are split for Rec. I/O). 3) Import HDV footage into After Effects CS3 and make a new comp - setting it to 23.976 fps. 4) Assemble split clips into Comp. 5) Move com to render queue and set the output module to Pro-Res 422 6) Import completed 23.98 clip into Final Cut Pro for editing. As you'll find here, many people are not happy about the HDV codec for obvious reasons. Indeed, when you capture HDV via firewire, without a 3rd party application (ie - cineform) or an expensive deck [SDI / AES] you'll be stuck in a 60i stream (29.97). So, final cut express will not allow you true 24p playback/editing - you'll need to treat the HDV video as listed above. Your last question about shooting 60i and dropping frames to 24. This has never looked good to me and in my opinion can never pass for 24 fps because of the 180 degree shutter angle. But yes, this is possible and has been done before 24p was readily available to the consumer market. Anyway, good luck in your shooting adventures and hope this helps. -C Last edited by Christopher Drews; May 27th, 2008 at 09:11 PM. Reason: omission

May 27th, 2008, 08:42 PM	#2
Tsu Terao Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Monterey Bay area, CA Posts: 82	If you have FCE and HV30, you could see if 30p would suit you, as it doesn't require pulldown removal. Also, don't confuse 24p and cine mode - they are independent settings that can be combined or not.

May 27th, 2008, 11:29 PM	#5
Scott Hamilton Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 101	Oh and also, I noticed you use After Effects in your workflow... I don't have after effects, can you do it without it? Scott

May 28th, 2008, 10:44 AM	#8
Scott Hamilton Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 101	Ok, found some more on the topic... hope someone tells me these guys are wrong... http://www.hv20.com/archive/index.php?t-445.html

May 28th, 2008, 11:02 AM	#9
Christopher Drews Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 628	The XL2 is Standard Defination vs HV20/30 which is HDV. XL2 has a pulldown pattern [24p or 24pA]- HDV just adds frames to the fill the stream. Does this make sense? JES, I believe, works under the assumption that you are de-interlacing rather than just removing excess frames. Pertaining to your question - honestly, FCE isn't my idea of a decent editor, as you'll have to find a workaround for everything included in Studio. Also, there are so many features and applications lacking. The bottom line - if you don't have a third party application, hardware or comrpressor, QuickTime Pro, AE or the like, you cannot edit in true 24p. You must treat the footage elsewhere before you bring it into FCE. -C

May 28th, 2008, 02:32 PM	#12
Christopher Drews Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 628	I've never done it but I assume with QuickTime pro, you could open your HDV file captured by FCE and hit "Apple+E" and export as Pro-Res 422 @ 23.98. Since QuickTime Pro is the same module used to for export via QuickTime components in the suite. Honestly, everyone should buy QuickTime Pro as an essential tool for exporting and making quick edits. -C

May 28th, 2008, 03:04 PM	#13
Scott Hamilton Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 101	Good enough for me, I will try it out, and if it doesn't work, oh well I've been needing to buy pro anyway... I'm exchanging the HD7 for the HV30 today and I will report back as soon as I test it! Now, if I can successfully convert it in Quicktime Pro, I wonder if FCE will be able to use a 23.98 fps timeline? Scott

May 28th, 2008, 04:38 PM	#15
Christopher Drews Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 628	I am almost certain that reverse telecine is something for interlaced video (with pulldown added [2:3:2:3 or 2:3:3:2]) and different than what the HV20/30's Frame Mode does when it creates HDV. I believe HDV just adds frames without pulldown which can be removed as simply as specifying the designated frame rate (ie - from 29.97 to 23.98) and recompressing all the frames to a QuickTime file. Am I mistaken? -C