Canon HF10 Review

Bob Kittleson · April 28th, 2008, 02:07 PM

Thanks for your review Stefan.

Note that cinema mode is not limited to the 24p frame rate. You can use it with 30p and 60i also. Might be worth experimenting with other frame rates to see what you like best. 24p is likely to show jumpy movement due to the low frame rate, so I personally wouldn't want to use it as my default shooting mode.

Some of your clips do illustrate a fairly common issue with the HF10/100 - they tend to blow the highlights when capturing in 60i full auto. I plan to experiment with cinema mode and/or contrast -1 to see if I can reduce that tendency.

Bruce Foreman · April 28th, 2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Eskin

The most recent updates to Cineform HDV that are optimized for use with CoreAVC really have made it very simple and predictable for me to use the HF10 with my workflow.

Michael,

I looked at some of the video you had linked from your ad on the HDC SD1 and both it and this look great.

I'm curious, what is your workflow?

I'm using Pinnacle Studio 11 plus but my new computer's processor seems to fall just a tad short on handling 1920x1080 from the HF100. Quad core Q6600 at 2.40GHz when that hi def requires 2.66 minimum in Pinnacle. So I have to set the cam for 1440x1080 at 13MBps and then I can edit and render.

I may need to look at other software and see what the budget will handle.

Dave Rosky · April 28th, 2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Foreman

I'm using Pinnacle Studio 11 plus but my new computer's processor seems to fall just a tad short on handling 1920x1080 from the HF100. Quad core Q6600 at 2.40GHz when that hi def requires 2.66 minimum in Pinnacle. So I have to set the cam for 1440x1080 at 13MBps and then I can edit and render.

Wouldn't the difference between a 2.4GHz and 2.66GHz processor just make editing run about 11% slower? Why would it cause you to not be able to edit 1920x1080 at all? Does the software actually check your processor speed and refuse to run if it is below 2.66GHz?

Michael Eskin · April 28th, 2008, 05:23 PM

At least on my system, I found that the decoders that worked fine for transcoding AVCHD at 1440x1080 resolution didn't work for 1920x1080, so before I bought the HF10, I spent a lot of time making sure that between Cineform HDV and CoreAVC, I could actually create intermediate files starting with the 1920x1080 source, even if they are downsampled to 1440x1080 by Cineform. There is enough of a quality difference between the 12 Mb/sec and 17 Mb/sec that even after downsampling the 17 Mb/sec streams are much better.

Stefan Immler · April 28th, 2008, 05:28 PM

Can someone recommend an editing software for the HF10 AVCHD footage on a Mac? I wanted to get Final Cut, but it seems that it cannot handle 24p frame rates and the full resolution 1920x1080 AVCHD footage (only 1440x1080). Also, what software would give me color corrections for a "film-like" look?

Thanks!

Lorenzo Asso · April 29th, 2008, 02:47 AM

Stefan,

if you use PS11, you could be very satisfied about differents "film look" presets by vitascene prodad effect. it is very very slow (since not optimized for quad) but the result is superb.
if you give me 1920x1080@17mbit shoot as it comes from the camera i can provide you a little sample. :-)

about the need to provide a 1440x1080 13mbit to your pc to be able to edit, it sounds me very strange.
i have q6600 (overcloked) too and i use both ps11 and premiere 3.2 and i have no problems to edit 1920x1080 clip at high bitrate.
(i believe it is too much important that you start from the maximum quality that you can, even if your final work should be in SD).

PS Since it is firm that HV20 it has some limits in particular conditions as for example panning, panoramic shoots and in general about shoots with many movements, would kindly try to get some shoots with your HF in similar conditions ? (both 60i and progressive function). So you can help me and not only, to know if it is a CMOS limit or HDV problem...

PPS The difference from your camera compared to HF100 it is only the presence of 16gb internal flash memory in HF10 ?

Thanks in advance.

ciao!

Michael Eskin · April 29th, 2008, 08:47 AM

I picked up an A-Data 16 GB Class 6 card at Fry's last night. Its really amazing to think how far we've come just in the last year. I would never imagine that I would be able to own such an amazing device as the HF10, with 32 GB of flash for less than $1000... what would this have cost just 5 years ago?

Its interesting, the HF10 just crosses the "finally, its good enough for my use" line that I've been chasing for a couple of years, starting with the Panasonic SD1 (small, very nicely constructed, but first generation AVCHD quality), to the HV20 (awesome, but tape based and a little big to toss in my piping case), I'm in heaven with the HF10. Sure its not for everyone, and it has some tradeoffs (AVCHD workflow, CMOS sensor, noise at very low light levels), but for my use (primarily very short videos of traditional Irish musicians in somewhat dark venues), I'm really happy.

M

Douglas Figueredo · April 29th, 2008, 09:12 AM

Hi Stefan - glad to see you got the camera. Really appreciate that you took the time to document and share all your findings. Looking forward to seeing more of your videos!

Cheers.

Stefan Immler · April 29th, 2008, 02:52 PM

Hi Lorenzo --

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorenzo Asso

PS Since it is firm that HV20 it has some limits in particular conditions as for example panning, panoramic shoots and in general about shoots with many movements, would kindly try to get some shoots with your HF in similar conditions ? (both 60i and progressive function). So you can help me and not only, to know if it is a CMOS limit or HDV problem...

I can make any shots that you want and post them on VIMEO. This offer is also true to all members here ... if you need me to film something special you had in mind, just let me know.

Quote:

PPS The difference from your camera compared to HF100 it is only the presence of 16gb internal flash memory in HF10?

I believe they are both the same, apart from the (missing) SDHD slot and the different color.

I am starting to get ready to shoot my first documentary: I got my camcorder (HF10), an external mic (AT 24Pro), an extra 5h battery, a Cokin filter holder with a bunch of filters, a Gitzo tripod with fluid head, and a Manfrotto monopod. Ready to roll! :-)

Stefan Immler · April 29th, 2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Eskin

Its interesting, the HF10 just crosses the "finally, its good enough for my use" line that I've been chasing for a couple of years ... I'm really happy.

I feel exactly the same! It also comforts me to know that the features that are missing on the HF10 would cost me two grand more (which I don't have), so the HF10 is the natural choice at this point in my life.

Michael Eskin · April 29th, 2008, 04:16 PM

What missing SDHC slot? Aren't the HF10 and HF100 the same? The HF10 definitely has a slot, otherwise, I just put my 16 GB card in a very bad place... :-)

Zalee Isa · April 29th, 2008, 04:20 PM

Can the Rode VideoMic be attached to the HF-10 hot shoe? Anyone has any picture to show? Thanks.

Michael Eskin · April 29th, 2008, 04:34 PM

No, not unless someone has an adapter that would step up the proprietary mini-shoe to a standard size. I could use one of those as well!

Zalee Isa · April 29th, 2008, 04:44 PM

Alas... I found a solution!

But I guess it's a little pricey.. but what the heck ;)

http://shop.dm-accessories.com/products/cms-flat

Thanks for the input!

Zalee Isa · April 29th, 2008, 07:07 PM

Or maybe we can make one of these. Just came up with an idea...

April 29th, 2008, 09:12 AM	#23
Douglas Figueredo New Boot Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: New York, NY Posts: 15	Great Work! Hi Stefan - glad to see you got the camera. Really appreciate that you took the time to document and share all your findings. Looking forward to seeing more of your videos! Cheers.

April 29th, 2008, 04:20 PM	#27
Zalee Isa New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 16	Can the Rode VideoMic be attached to the HF-10 hot shoe? Anyone has any picture to show? Thanks. __________________  Certified Trainer

April 29th, 2008, 04:44 PM	#29
Zalee Isa New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 16	Alas... I found a solution! But I guess it's a little pricey.. but what the heck ;) http://shop.dm-accessories.com/products/cms-flat Thanks for the input! __________________  Certified Trainer

April 29th, 2008, 07:07 PM	#30
Zalee Isa New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 16	Or maybe we can make one of these. Just came up with an idea... Attached Thumbnails __________________  Certified Trainer

April 28th, 2008, 02:07 PM	#16
Bob Kittleson New Boot Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 16	Thanks for your review Stefan. Note that cinema mode is not limited to the 24p frame rate. You can use it with 30p and 60i also. Might be worth experimenting with other frame rates to see what you like best. 24p is likely to show jumpy movement due to the low frame rate, so I personally wouldn't want to use it as my default shooting mode. Some of your clips do illustrate a fairly common issue with the HF10/100 - they tend to blow the highlights when capturing in 60i full auto. I plan to experiment with cinema mode and/or contrast -1 to see if I can reduce that tendency.

April 28th, 2008, 05:23 PM	#19
Michael Eskin Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73	At least on my system, I found that the decoders that worked fine for transcoding AVCHD at 1440x1080 resolution didn't work for 1920x1080, so before I bought the HF10, I spent a lot of time making sure that between Cineform HDV and CoreAVC, I could actually create intermediate files starting with the 1920x1080 source, even if they are downsampled to 1440x1080 by Cineform. There is enough of a quality difference between the 12 Mb/sec and 17 Mb/sec that even after downsampling the 17 Mb/sec streams are much better.

April 28th, 2008, 05:28 PM	#20
Stefan Immler Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Washington DC Posts: 162	Can someone recommend an editing software for the HF10 AVCHD footage on a Mac? I wanted to get Final Cut, but it seems that it cannot handle 24p frame rates and the full resolution 1920x1080 AVCHD footage (only 1440x1080). Also, what software would give me color corrections for a "film-like" look? Thanks!

April 29th, 2008, 02:47 AM	#21
Lorenzo Asso Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Italy Posts: 47	Stefan, if you use PS11, you could be very satisfied about differents "film look" presets by vitascene prodad effect. it is very very slow (since not optimized for quad) but the result is superb. if you give me 1920x1080@17mbit shoot as it comes from the camera i can provide you a little sample. :-) about the need to provide a 1440x1080 13mbit to your pc to be able to edit, it sounds me very strange. i have q6600 (overcloked) too and i use both ps11 and premiere 3.2 and i have no problems to edit 1920x1080 clip at high bitrate. (i believe it is too much important that you start from the maximum quality that you can, even if your final work should be in SD). PS Since it is firm that HV20 it has some limits in particular conditions as for example panning, panoramic shoots and in general about shoots with many movements, would kindly try to get some shoots with your HF in similar conditions ? (both 60i and progressive function). So you can help me and not only, to know if it is a CMOS limit or HDV problem... PPS The difference from your camera compared to HF100 it is only the presence of 16gb internal flash memory in HF10 ? Thanks in advance. ciao!

April 29th, 2008, 08:47 AM	#22
Michael Eskin Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73	I picked up an A-Data 16 GB Class 6 card at Fry's last night. Its really amazing to think how far we've come just in the last year. I would never imagine that I would be able to own such an amazing device as the HF10, with 32 GB of flash for less than $1000... what would this have cost just 5 years ago? Its interesting, the HF10 just crosses the "finally, its good enough for my use" line that I've been chasing for a couple of years, starting with the Panasonic SD1 (small, very nicely constructed, but first generation AVCHD quality), to the HV20 (awesome, but tape based and a little big to toss in my piping case), I'm in heaven with the HF10. Sure its not for everyone, and it has some tradeoffs (AVCHD workflow, CMOS sensor, noise at very low light levels), but for my use (primarily very short videos of traditional Irish musicians in somewhat dark venues), I'm really happy. M

April 29th, 2008, 04:16 PM	#26
Michael Eskin Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73	What missing SDHC slot? Aren't the HF10 and HF100 the same? The HF10 definitely has a slot, otherwise, I just put my 16 GB card in a very bad place... :-)

April 29th, 2008, 04:34 PM	#28
Michael Eskin Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73	No, not unless someone has an adapter that would step up the proprietary mini-shoe to a standard size. I could use one of those as well!