HG10- Actual 1440X1080 vs advertised 1920X1080

[Ken Ross]

I borrowed the HG10 and was surprised to find, despite Canon's website proclamation of 1920X1080 on the hard drive, that in reality it recorded 1440X1080.

Does anyone have an explanation of this? I've never seen this 'hanky panky' with Canon.

[Chris Hurd]

You're referring to their bullet point "Full HD onto a 40GB Hard Disk Drive" near the bottom of this page:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...&modelid=15617

It's regrettable, because the HD video recorded to the drive is actually 1080 x 1440. I'll fire off an email to their video division marketing department about the error. I'm willing to bet they'll correct the oversight in due course.

All Canon consumer HD camcorders have a "Full HD" CMOS sensor but only two of them -- the recently announced VIXIA HF10 and HF100 -- offer the option to record 1920 x 1080 video.

Thanks for pointing this out.

[Chris Hurd]

Note the distinction made between "Full HD" and "1920x1080" at the bottom of Canon USA's web page for the VIXIA HF10 (same for HF100): http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...&modelid=16186

[Ken Ross]

Chris, yes, I did notice that difference in wording. In fact I spent 40 minutes on the phone with Canon tech support to try to resolve this. The tech said he was sure that it did output 1920X1080 via the HDMI port.

I told him that made no sense since the file that existed on the drive was only 1440 and therefore output via HDMI couldn't 'extrapolate' information that wasn't there. He agreed with the logic.

After about 30 minutes of 'conferencing' he came back and said they were all confused now. Bottom line is that the cam does indeed record only 1440X1080.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

...The tech said he was sure that it did output 1920X1080 via the HDMI port.

I told him that made no sense since the file that existed on the drive was only 1440 and therefore output via HDMI couldn't 'extrapolate' information that wasn't there.

But it might interpolate or double pixels to output 1920. So technically, it would be putting out 1920x1080.

And as you pointed out, that doesn't mean that the images were recorded at 1920 or that the HDMI output has full 1920 quality.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

But it might interpolate or double pixels to output 1920. So technically, it would be putting out 1920x1080.

And as you pointed out, that doesn't mean that the images were recorded at 1920 or that the HDMI output has full 1920 quality.

That's true Jon, but even there I doubt that Canon has a special processor between the drive and the HDMI output that does that extrapolation. I'd be willing to bet that the HDMI output is nothing more than 1440X1080 just as it is on the drive.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Note the CEA's EDID v3 does not include 1440x1080p as a standard resolution. EDID is used in HDMI to communicate the media/monitor configuration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extende..._3_data_format

My guess is that 1920x1080p is used over the link to maximize compatibility, though it probably uses pixel replication to keep costs down.

Just a guess though...

[Douglas Figueredo]

As I understand it (and I can be completely wrong) is that if you take the HDMI out 'live', meaning as things are happening, to your computer, then that signal is 1920 x 1080. Once you record it to hard drive, then the signal coming out of HDMI is the compressed 1440 x 1080 AVCHD.

'Live taping' to computer via HDMI is 1920 x 1080

Recorded video in AVCHD to computer via HDMI is 1440 x 1080

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Douglas Figueredo

As I understand it (and I can be completely wrong) is that if you take the HDMI out 'live', meaning as things are happening, to your computer, then that signal is 1920 x 1080. Once you record it to hard drive, then the signal coming out of HDMI is the compressed 1440 x 1080 AVCHD.

'Live taping' to computer via HDMI is 1920 x 1080

Recorded video in AVCHD to computer via HDMI is 1440 x 1080

Doug, keep in mind that unlike the HDV format, AVCHD has no 1440 horizontal restriction. The AVCHD format does allow the full 1920X1080 resolution in its specs. In fact a number of upcoming cams (including Canon, Sony and Panasonic) will allow 1920X1080 recording on to the SDHC card or hard drive.

With that said you may correct about the live picture out via HDMI on the HG1. However, the very misleading part of this is that the Canon literature clearly states that the cam delivers 1920X1080 ON the hard drive. That's quite a bit different than saying 1920X1080 'live' out of the HDMI port.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

the Canon literature clearly states that the cam delivers 1920X1080 ON the hard drive.

Well, not exactly, no. The Canon literature clearly states that the cam delivers "Full HD onto a 40GB Hard Disk Drive" and you (and me and many other people) are interpreting that to mean 1920x1080 because that's what we've come to think of as Full HD when we see that term. Canon seems to be interpreting the term Full HD differently. Apparently they're thinking of it as *all* flavors of 1080. I agree with you that it is very misleading and quite confusing, but let's be clear that they are *not* actually saying that it "delivers 1920x1080 on the hard drive."

What this is really about, is how they're defining the term "Full HD." This is where Canon has made a mistake in defining it differently than how the rest of the industry (including us) have come to think of that term, as representing nothing less than 1920x1080. In the long run it's all marketing anyway.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Well, not exactly, no. The Canon literature clearly states that the cam delivers "Full HD onto a 40GB Hard Disk Drive" and you (and me and many other people) are interpreting that to mean 1920x1080 because that's what we've come to think of as Full HD when we see that term. Canon seems to be interpreting the term Full HD differently. Apparently they're thinking of it as *all* flavors of 1080. I agree with you that it is very misleading and quite confusing, but let's be clear that they are *not* actually saying that it "delivers 1920x1080 on the hard drive."

What this is about, is how they're defining the term "Full HD." This is where Canon has made a mistake in defining it differently than how the rest of the industry (including us) have come to think of that term as representing nothing less than 1920x1080. In the long run it's all marketing anyway.

Chris, I too thought what you stated, but here is the paragraph directly from the Canon website that clearly states it delivers 1920X1080 to the hard drive. When I pointed this out yesterday to the Canon rep, he too was at a loss to explain:

"The HG10 captures 1920 x 1080 High Definition resolution video onto a 40GB hard disk drive. A convenient format for anyone who wants to transfer video to a computer for viewing, editing or sharing, it also makes your life easier as you never have to worry about not carrying around enough recording media with you as you shoot your future memories. In LP mode, you'll be able to record up to 15 hours of video. Even when shooting in super high quality mode, five-and-a-half hours of footage is yours without taking a break to change tapes or DVDs."

[Pascal Canning]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

"The HG10 captures 1920 x 1080 High Definition resolution video onto a 40GB hard disk drive. A convenient format for anyone who wants to transfer video to a computer for viewing, editing or sharing, it also makes your life easier as you never have to worry about not carrying around enough recording media with you as you shoot your future memories. In LP mode, you'll be able to record up to 15 hours of video. Even when shooting in super high quality mode, five-and-a-half hours of footage is yours without taking a break to change tapes or DVDs."

Yes Ken. I read that some time back but couldn't find it again. Now that you mentioned it, I looked again more thoroughly.
If one clicks the 'Features' tab and then the 'NEXT' button on the bottom it should bring you to here: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...delFeaturesAct where it clearly states what Ken quoted. Now I am very confused.

Pascal

Note: You must click the next button

[Pascal Canning]

Is everyone here of the opinion that the HG10 is in fact 1440 x 1080. Or is it really 1920 x 1080 as stated by Canon and that some of the initial reviews undertaken last year, were mislead by the actual application they were using to test it. One thing for sure is the effective pixels in the sensor in HD Movie mode is 1920 x 1080.

In STILL mode the effective pixels are 1920 x 1440. Could this be confusing some people? the 1440 horizontal pixels in STILL mode. I did a quick google and got this on cnet from a couple of weeks ago.

Originally Posted by ON CNET

Confusion over 1440 x 1080 or is it 1920 x 1080. there's a lot of debate and no real answer here.. no one can say for sure at this point what the REAL resolution of this camcorder is. it's advertised at 1920, it shows up in some appications at 1920. However other applications show it as 1440... but some are starting to lean toward the applications being the issue and downsizing the 1920 to 1440 incorrectly.

Pascal

[Chris Hurd]

Wow. Sure enough, there it is. They need to correct that error a.s.a.p.

Thanks for pointing this out,

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Pascal Canning

Is everyone here of the opinion that the HG10 is in fact 1440 x 1080. Or is it really 1920 x 1080 as stated by Canon and that some of the initial reviews undertaken last year, were mislead by the actual application they were using to test it. One thing for sure is the effective pixels in the sensor in HD Movie mode is 1920 x 1080.

In STILL mode the effective pixels are 1920 x 1440. Could this be confusing some people? the 1440 horizontal pixels in STILL mode. I did a quick google and got this on cnet from a couple of weeks ago.

Pascal

Pascal, no this is without a doubt a 1440 unit. I put two clips into ULead Studio 11+, one from a Panasonic SD5 and the other a Canon HG10. Ulead and Windows Media player both reported the SD5 as 1920X1080 and the HG10 as 1440X1080. There is no question this is accurate and the website is wrong.

Chris, no problem, I just wanted to be sure that others aren't misled as I was. I do believe the upcoming HF10 will be a true 1920X1080 unit.