HG10- Actual 1440X1080 vs advertised 1920X1080

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

I do believe the upcoming HF10 will be a true 1920X1080 unit.

Both of the Canon consumer HD flash memory camcorders -- the VIXIA HF10 and HF100 -- offer the option to record 1920x1080. I sent an email to Canon USA about your discovery of the error on their HG10 product page, and they replied promptly telling me that they're aware of the issue and have submitted a change request to the IT department that handles their web site. Expect to see it corrected soon.

[Ken Ross]

Good news for future buyers, but probably somewhat late for buyers that expected this unit to deliver a full 1920X1080. Thanks for your efforts on this Chris.

[Ken Ross]

I believe another thing that's come to light in tests I've been doing is that although the Panasonic SD5 is a 1920X1080 camcorder, its pixel shift technology is not delivering a true 1920X1080. It looks like there's a lot of 'interpolation' that's going on. In fact, I see more detail in clips from the Canon HG10 than I do from the Panny SD5.

This stuff can make you tear your hair out. :)

[Paulo Teixeira]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

In fact, I see more detail in clips from the Canon HG10 than I do from the Panny SD5.

The HG10 does have nearly 3Mbps more than the SD5. At least the newer camcorders from Panasonic, Canon and Sony have the same resolution and bit rate.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

The HG10 does have nearly 3Mbps more than the SD5. At least the newer camcorders from Panasonic, Canon and Sony have the same resolution and bit rate.

Paulo, it might not be a big deal, but I think the Sony & Panasonic only does 16Mbps. The Canons will do 17Mbps. But I wonder if the difference I'm seeing between the HG10 and the SD5 is more attributable to the pixel shift technology of the SD5 and what is perhaps not a 'true' 1920X1080. Of course the Canon may simply have superior processing.

It might well be that all 1920X1080 resolutions are not created equal. Do you begin to see why you can tear your hair out over these things. Once again specs don't seem to mean a whole lot.

[Pascal Canning]

The way I understand it is the Digic DV processor receives 1920 x 1080 from the sensor. The processor sends 1920 x 1080 out the HDMI port. The processor also converts (squishes, compresses or whatever) to a 1440 x 1080 format to record to the hard drive. I doubt that they actually discard the missing 480 vertical lines information.

Is this what most people think happens?

If the sensor does not in fact use the full 1920 lines in movie mode, then there are several more errors all over the Canon websites.

In any case the finished product is what counts. And I beleive that the HG10 has the best finished product of all the AVCHD cameras out there (at the moment), and better than a lot of HD DV camera. This is probably down to Canon's extensive experience with still cameras and their processors, lens and shutters.

Even though bit rate alone does not make a good finished product, the fact that the HG10 records at 15Mb/s (thats almost 2MB per second) makes you wonder the quality that AVCHD will produce at 24Mb/s. I feel when companies start going over 20Mb/s in consumer cameras, it will put the final nail in the coffin for tape driven consumer cameras.

Then Chris will have to make four or five new sections here in the AVCHD forums.

Regards
Pascal

BTW: I have ordered a HG10 now. And should have it here on Monday.

Pascal

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Pascal Canning

The way I understand it is the Digic DV processor receives 1920 x 1080 from the sensor. The processor sends 1920 x 1080 out the HDMI port. The processor also converts (squishes, compresses or whatever) to a 1440 x 1080 format to record to the hard drive. I doubt that they actually discard the missing 480 vertical lines information.

Is this what most people think happens?

If the sensor does not in fact use the full 1920 lines in movie mode, then there are several more errors all over the Canon websites.


Pascal

Pascal, I think you might be correct that the only way you can see 1920X1080 is 'live' out the HDMI port. When I said this is 'without a doubt a 1440X1080 camcorder", I meant in terms of the files it creates within the cam and available for export. It really does the vast percentage of videographers no good to only allow 1920 via the live HDMI port. If you can only capture a full 1920X1080 via the HDMI port and an auxilliary recording unit connected via HDMI, in my mind it defeats the purpose of having a small one-piece camcorder.

I've yet to see anyone post that they have actually even captured a full 1920X1080 from the HG10 via the HDMI port to a secondary drive. So even that remains questionable. I do believe the sensor is capturing a full 1920X1080, but it gets downrezzed to 1440X1080 in any file format within the camera. This is no different than what happens in a typical Canon HDV camcorder like the HV10 or HV20.

With that said, I do agree the HG10 produces the best picture of any AVCHD camcorder that I've seen. But it can not produce a 1920X1080 file internally. That would mean that the camera does indeed discard the extra 440 pixels of information as it writes to the hard drive. At least that would be what makes sense to me. If you go from 1920 to 1440, obviously that extra information gets lost.

[Ian G. Thompson]

Well...I know it's probably already been mentioned...but if the HG10 acts like the HV20....then when it records to the hard drive it stores the footage as 1440x1080. But coming out the HDMI "from" the hard drive it will up-rez that footage to 1920x1080. But when coming out "live" from the HDMI port it bypasses the AVCHD codec and is at 1920x1080.

It's the live footage that is in question...was it shrunk to 1440x1080 and then resized to 1920x1080 by the DSP? People speculate one way or the other...but that information is still unknown.... My idea is this....since the internals of the upcoming cams are similar to these cams...maybe someone with an HF10/100 can shoot some footage out its HDMI "live' along with an HG10/v20 and analyze both footage. The HF10/100 has no reason to downsize its image to 1440x1080...so that means its image should be pure 1920x1080. Size them up, analyze them and maybe that would answer the above question...just an idea.

[Guy Bruner]

The HG10 records in anamorphic widescreen, just like all the HDV cams. The sensor works just like the HV20...full HD @ 1920x1080. But, when it gets recorded, it is anamorphic 1440x1080.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Ian G. Thompson

The HF10/100 has no reason to downsize its image to 1440x1080...so that means its image should be pure 1920x1080.

Keep in mind that the HF10/100 also records 1440x1080. Actually these cameras offer several recording modes and all but one are 1440x1080. Only the highest bitrate (at 17mbps), called FXP mode, is 1920x1080.

[Paulo Teixeira]

This been going on ever since the HV10 got released and I don’t think it should be compared to what Panasonic does because to some reviews I’ve read, the SD5 deals with motion better than the 1920x1080 mode of the Sanyo HD1000 which has nearly the same bit rate. JVC on the other hand is going to have a bigger problem than Canon with people thinking that it's newest HD camcorders records to 1920x1080 60p.

By today’s standards, the HG10 is getting old anyway and their newer camcorders are much better.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Guy Bruner

The HG10 records in anamorphic widescreen, just like all the HDV cams. The sensor works just like the HV20...full HD @ 1920x1080. But, when it gets recorded, it is anamorphic 1440x1080.

That's correct Guy. The HG10 is really no different in terms of resolution and how it records & outputs than the HV10 or HV20. The upcoming HF series will be true 1920X1080.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

This been going on ever since the HV10 got released and I don’t think it should be compared to what Panasonic does because to some reviews I’ve read, the SD5 deals with motion better than the 1920x1080 mode of the Sanyo HD1000 which has nearly the same bit rate.

But the thing I've learned about is that there appears to be more true resolvable resolution in the HG10 than the SD5, even though the SD5 is rated at 1920. I think there's a whole lot of 'interpolation' going on in the SD5 and it's not even close to showing a true 1920X1080. That's just my opinion based on what I see on a 60" Pioneer Kuro plasma with both cams.

[Ian G. Thompson]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Keep in mind that the HF10/100 also records 1440x1080. Actually these cameras offer several recording modes and all but one are 1440x1080. Only the highest bitrate (at 17mbps), called FXP mode, is 1920x1080.

Oh ok...I overlooked that. Thanks.

[Pascal Canning]

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

By today’s standards, the HG10 is getting old anyway and their newer camcorders are much better.

The two new Canons have great promise, but by their specification and price seem to be on the lower end of a new range of AVCHD SD cams to come. They have no viewfinder (a must for me and others). Also I have not seen any of the output from the HF10 or HF100. Also they are not available for two months.

So IMO 'by today's standards' the HG10 is the best AVCHD camera available as of Febuary 2008

Pascal