VIXIA HV30 announced -- pics

Daymon Hoffman · January 10th, 2008, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Y Wong

my best guess is that it takes a single 30pprogressive frame and splits it into 2 60i fields. u will need to a deinterlace to restore back to original progressive frame

Is this what we should be doing in PAL land for 25p shot footage on the HV20?

Gosh i wish there were a few more additions to the HV30. Does anyone think they will give us proper metadata (or stream info) to show 24/25/30p flags etc? Woudlnt be to bad if this little gem of an update made it in. Though still not worth upgrading for 99.5% of HV20 owners.

Chris Hurd · January 10th, 2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daymon Hoffman

Does anyone think they will give us proper metadata (or stream info) to show 24/25/30p flags etc?

No change here, sorry (by the way pulldown flags are not needed for 25P or 30P).

John Benton · January 10th, 2008, 11:28 AM

Yeah,
but I just purchased my HV20.
So I returned it to B&H and will wait for the HV30
for me the better LCD (as I am using this with a 35mm adapter) is great.
30p is nice too.
enough of a reason to wait for a month

Walter Hunt · January 13th, 2008, 09:57 PM

Who are these yo-yos who say "30p is of little use to pros"? MANY "Pros" think 30p actually looks better than 24p. And no problem with judder. I might pick up one of these just for the 30p. Some of you have obviously been blinded by the "24p" hype. That's all it is folks... hype. Shallow DOF has MUCH more to do with your heralded "film look" than frame rate.

When one of you gets the HV30... do a little test between 24p and 30p for the shutterbugs here.. then be honest with yourself regarding which one actually looks better.

Pedanes Bol · January 13th, 2008, 10:58 PM

Will the final product of shooting at 30p, importing to NLE and then exporting as a 24p file give the same film effect as the final product of shooting at 24p, removing pull-down, importing to NLE and then exporting as 24p? The reason I am asking is the removal of pulldown procedure is time-consuming (especially when there are no flags), and I was wondering whether one can achieve the same film effect simply by reducing the number of frames per second to 24 during export of a footage already shot and captured at 30 fps?

P.

Eugenia Loli-Queru · January 13th, 2008, 11:44 PM

It won't look the same because the shutter speed used by the camera is different.

James Richardson · January 14th, 2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Benton

Yeah,
but I just purchased my HV20.
So I returned it to B&H and will wait for the HV30
for me the better LCD (as I am using this with a 35mm adapter) is great.
30p is nice too.
enough of a reason to wait for a month

I was set to order my HV20 from B&H right before Christmas. I am glad that I decided to wait. However, the $300 price difference is a fairly big deal considering the minor improvements. B&H is selling the HV20 for about $680 while the HV30 is gonna retail at $999. I suspect that the price will drop shortly afterwards.

The 30p mode would be great for the web productions that I create and the black color is much cooler, but I still don't know if that justifies the extra 300 bucks.

Pedanes Bol · January 14th, 2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru

It won't look the same because the shutter speed used by the camera is different.

Eugenia, can you explain further how the shutter speed will effect the film look of the footage other than effecting the exposure. Let's say at 24p mode you used a shutter speed of 1/48 and at 30p mode 1/60. Don't you think, as long as the exposure is compensated appropriately by aperture and/or gain, you should get 24 full frames in 24p mode and 30 full frames in 30p mode and the desired exposure?

Back to my question, will reducing the number of frames per second from 30 to 24 during export by eliminating 6 frames give you the same effect of film look compared to getting 24 frames from start?

P.

Chris Barcellos · January 14th, 2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedanes Bol

Will the final product of shooting at 30p, importing to NLE and then exporting as a 24p file give the same film effect as the final product of shooting at 24p, removing pull-down, importing to NLE and then exporting as 24p? The reason I am asking is the removal of pulldown procedure is time-consuming (especially when there are no flags), and I was wondering whether one can achieve the same film effect simply by reducing the number of frames per second to 24 during export of a footage already shot and captured at 30 fps?

P.

In the "old days" (nine months ago :) ), my understanding from various companies offering conversion programs, is that it was better to shoot in 60i, at 1/60, edit, and convert you final product to 24p using a "proper" conversion system. That provided preservation of a maximum amount of the preservable resolution in the process.

I have actually shot 60i footage on my FX1, and taken the captured files into Cineform's HDLink, doing pulldown removal to get 24p in the Conversion. David Newman at Cineform says you do lose resolution, but the resulting footage looked pretty good to me.

Dale Backus · January 14th, 2008, 07:39 PM

At least they didn't downgrade it, and they didn't raise the price on it... and black is way cooler IMO.

Seems like by coming out with a slightly upgraded version for less money, we can continue to capture outstanding video in the sub 1k range for a long time to come.

Any links to an official spec sheet anywhere?

Chris Hurd · January 14th, 2008, 08:19 PM

Dale -- official spec sheet at this link:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...elTechSpecsAct

Tony Parenti · January 15th, 2008, 12:07 PM

Is there any way to get 30p out the HV20 using 60i mode??

If so how, I'm assuming post processing???

Derek Prestegard · January 15th, 2008, 01:42 PM

Yes you can, rather simply. It's called deinterlacing.

60i -> 30p = deinterlacing
60i -> 60p = bob deinterlacing

I'm constantly dismayed at the laughable quality of most deinterlacing algorithms in popular pro software. AviSynth for the win in this department. MCBob is kind of ridiculous, but very slow. Magic Bullet isn't bad, but AviSynth is better - and free! :)

If you're shooting 60i with the HV20 (or any HDV camera) it's recording 60i.

If you're shooting 24p, it's recording 60i - but the 60i has pulldown flags. Removing these flags (with a competent NLE or AviSynth) recovers the actual 24p that the sensors captured. There is no deinterlacing required - it's called field matching. Fields get moved around and so forth, but there's no interpolation performed. Hence it's a lossless process.

Deinterlacing is not lossless.

I'm not sure how the HV20 captures its images, if it performs its own internal (probably bad) deinterlacing, or if it actually acquires progressive images. I'm sure someone here knows ;)

~MiSfit

Euisung Lee · January 16th, 2008, 03:00 AM

From 24p standpoint 30p itself doesn't interests me that much but as a slow-mo shooting mode it's an excellent option. 30 -> 24 slow down will be great for subtler slowmo shots, and of course it doesn't lose vertical resolution.

HV30 is understandably a very conservative upgrade. Regardless of actual cost of adding more feature, I think Canon doesn't want to make their now 'vixia' line of cameras any more pro-friendly than they are now ;)

Derek,
HV20 (and 30) captures image progressively for 24p, which is why it garnered so much interest since announcement.

Tom Hardwick · January 16th, 2008, 04:19 AM

Nice upgrade Canon, and kept well away from the XH-A1 by sticking with the rather slow (F/1.8) rather short (10x) and rather 'dull' focal lengths that immediately cry out for a wide-angle converter. But like other posters have said - the deserved sales success of this little wonder-cam show that Canon are a real pin-prick in Sony's side. All power to them.

tom.

January 13th, 2008, 09:57 PM	#49
Walter Hunt New Boot Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: austin, tx Posts: 7	Improvement... Who are these yo-yos who say "30p is of little use to pros"? MANY "Pros" think 30p actually looks better than 24p. And no problem with judder. I might pick up one of these just for the 30p. Some of you have obviously been blinded by the "24p" hype. That's all it is folks... hype. Shallow DOF has MUCH more to do with your heralded "film look" than frame rate. When one of you gets the HV30... do a little test between 24p and 30p for the shutterbugs here.. then be honest with yourself regarding which one actually looks better.

January 13th, 2008, 10:58 PM	#50
Pedanes Bol Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Boston MA Posts: 167	24p Question Will the final product of shooting at 30p, importing to NLE and then exporting as a 24p file give the same film effect as the final product of shooting at 24p, removing pull-down, importing to NLE and then exporting as 24p? The reason I am asking is the removal of pulldown procedure is time-consuming (especially when there are no flags), and I was wondering whether one can achieve the same film effect simply by reducing the number of frames per second to 24 during export of a footage already shot and captured at 30 fps? P.

January 14th, 2008, 08:19 PM	#56
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Dale -- official spec sheet at this link: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...elTechSpecsAct __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 10th, 2008, 11:28 AM	#48
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	Yeah, but I just purchased my HV20. So I returned it to B&H and will wait for the HV30 for me the better LCD (as I am using this with a 35mm adapter) is great. 30p is nice too. enough of a reason to wait for a month

January 13th, 2008, 11:44 PM	#51
Eugenia Loli-Queru Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA, USA Posts: 348	It won't look the same because the shutter speed used by the camera is different.

January 14th, 2008, 07:39 PM	#55
Dale Backus Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 132	At least they didn't downgrade it, and they didn't raise the price on it... and black is way cooler IMO. Seems like by coming out with a slightly upgraded version for less money, we can continue to capture outstanding video in the sub 1k range for a long time to come. Any links to an official spec sheet anywhere?

January 15th, 2008, 12:07 PM	#57
Tony Parenti Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Bristol, CT. USA Posts: 54	Is there any way to get 30p out the HV20 using 60i mode?? If so how, I'm assuming post processing???

January 15th, 2008, 01:42 PM	#58
Derek Prestegard Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Santa Cruz, California Posts: 30	Yes you can, rather simply. It's called deinterlacing. 60i -> 30p = deinterlacing 60i -> 60p = bob deinterlacing I'm constantly dismayed at the laughable quality of most deinterlacing algorithms in popular pro software. AviSynth for the win in this department. MCBob is kind of ridiculous, but very slow. Magic Bullet isn't bad, but AviSynth is better - and free! :) If you're shooting 60i with the HV20 (or any HDV camera) it's recording 60i. If you're shooting 24p, it's recording 60i - but the 60i has pulldown flags. Removing these flags (with a competent NLE or AviSynth) recovers the actual 24p that the sensors captured. There is no deinterlacing required - it's called field matching. Fields get moved around and so forth, but there's no interpolation performed. Hence it's a lossless process. Deinterlacing is not lossless. I'm not sure how the HV20 captures its images, if it performs its own internal (probably bad) deinterlacing, or if it actually acquires progressive images. I'm sure someone here knows ;) ~MiSfit

January 16th, 2008, 03:00 AM	#59
Euisung Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 57	From 24p standpoint 30p itself doesn't interests me that much but as a slow-mo shooting mode it's an excellent option. 30 -> 24 slow down will be great for subtler slowmo shots, and of course it doesn't lose vertical resolution. HV30 is understandably a very conservative upgrade. Regardless of actual cost of adding more feature, I think Canon doesn't want to make their now 'vixia' line of cameras any more pro-friendly than they are now ;) Derek, HV20 (and 30) captures image progressively for 24p, which is why it garnered so much interest since announcement.

January 16th, 2008, 04:19 AM	#60
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Nice upgrade Canon, and kept well away from the XH-A1 by sticking with the rather slow (F/1.8) rather short (10x) and rather 'dull' focal lengths that immediately cry out for a wide-angle converter. But like other posters have said - the deserved sales success of this little wonder-cam show that Canon are a real pin-prick in Sony's side. All power to them. tom.