Final Cut 6.0.2 and HV20 Workflow - Questions about Supposed 1080-24f Easy Setups.

[Anton Marini]

Hello

My first post on the forum. I am a fairly new HV20 user, and have some workflow questions regarding Final Cut 6.0.2 wrt the HV20 - forgive me if this is answered elsewhere, I could not find a definitive answer concerning FCP 6.0.2s newer easy setups.

Short version - is it possible with FCP 6.0.2 to capture to a format (ProRes/HVD/AIC etc - I dont care) - but use log and capture AND get reverse telecine while capturing? I would expect this to be possible with interframe codecs like AIC/ProRes, not HDV with its long frame cruft.

I am aware of the reverse telecine process that must be applied to properly conform footage shot at cannons 1080p24 mode, and I am also aware that apparently the HV20 does not add cadence metadata to the video stream, so your reverse telecine software must have cadence detection and all that fun jazz (a la compressor).

With Final Cut 6.0.2 the release notes it mentions support for Cannons 24f mode with the easy setups as follows:

http://www.apple.com/support/release.../doc/uid/link2 (from here).

****
HDV Workflow Improvements
The following HDV Easy Setups should be used specifically for capturing footage in Canon HDV 1080F24, 1080F25, and 1080F30 formats:

HDV - 1080p24 FireWire Basic
HDV - 1080p25 FireWire Basic
HDV - 1080p30 FireWire Basic
****

Does this mean one no longer needs to use the HV20 workflow describe by Apple ?(http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306389)

Ive shot some material @ 1080p24 on my HV20, and tried three workflows as follows:

A) HDV 1080i60 FW Basic -> ProRes via Compressor Rev Telecine

B) HDV 1080p24 Firewire Basic (new in 6.0.2)

C) HDV - Apple ProRes 422 1080p24 (new in 6.0.2 - but mentions only the Sony HVR-V1)

My results are rather... interesting, so I feel I must be missing something basic about the new 6.0.2 improvements.

With the "traditional" workflow "A", I can log and capture and then transcode my material just fine. It seems to remove the pulldown as expected. I just dont want to spend the time capturing and transcoding :(
For reference, every 5th frame in the viewer in FCP before conversion is doubled up.

With workflow "B" I have captured a 29.97fps HDV movie, which has no pulldown removal as far as I can tell, every 5th frame shows the typical ghosted double frame ( like so http://www.flickr.com/photos/missilemike/494788313/ ) if I view in QT player of the viewer.

When I put this clip into a sequence created with the B easy setup, I am asked if I want to change my sequence from 23.98 to 29.97, which, uh, is not what I want to do. Selecting no gives me the nice little preview green line above my clip. *mutter*. However it seems to playback ok?

With workflow "C" its basically the same as workflow "B", but I have a ProRes encoded clip @ 29.97, with every 5th frame doubled (if i view in QT/or the viewer) , and I also am queried about changing my sequence setting. The other annoyance is that I was not able to log and capture, but presented with a window to name my clip, and then FCP just started doing 'capture now' (essentially).

However, with B and C it *seems* like it plays fine in the sequence if I tell it not to change anything? I'd love a bit of clarification about this. It seems like the sequence is properly skipping the redundant frames at 23.98.

What are others experiences with 6.0.2? What is the point of the 1080 24f support in 6.0.2 - does the HV20 shoot at this 24f mode ( does this refer to Cannons lack of metadata cadence info)? There is no way to capture at a true 23.98 framerate from an easy setup?

Thanks! Im a bit confused! (can you tell? :) )

[Ian Albinson]

Originally Posted by Anton Marini

HDV Workflow Improvements
The following HDV Easy Setups should be used specifically for capturing footage in Canon HDV 1080F24, 1080F25, and 1080F30 formats:

HDV - 1080p24 FireWire Basic
HDV - 1080p25 FireWire Basic
HDV - 1080p30 FireWire Basic

I believe these workflow improvements are for the pro line of Canon camcorders, like the XL A1 and H1. Those cameras use the 1080F24/25/30 naming system, which are actually 1080p recordings.

[Anton Marini]

Thanks Ian, that seems to clear up the issue for the easy setups, anyone know about the workflow questions?

So the HV20 is NOT using Cannons 24F, (my confusion stems from reading a posting on an alternate forum stating the HV20 was indeed 24F, and, within the manual its 24P mode is referred to as 24FP). Joy!

Thanks again,

[John Benton]

All the 24 I have seen from tho HV20 is interlaced.
what's this about?
How are people dealing
(Obviously you could deinterlace in your NLE - But what's the cost in Res w. the HV20?)
Thanks

[Anton Marini]

Unless I am horribly ignorant and have mis-read just about everything out there on the HV20, while it shoots @ 1080i60 - in 24 Cine mode it inserts a pulldown pattern to the 60i material resulting in an interlacing pattern that is essentially progressive (if the two fields are from the SAME moment in time, its progressive...) , and this can be inverse telecined to achieve TRUE progressive 24fps footage.

However the caveat is that the HV20 does not put in the cadence metadata so your NLE/deinterlacing software has to either be smart enough to recognize the cadence on its own, or be explicetly told by you.

My questions above were about sidestepping the post processing after capture, and using FCP 6.0.2 to do on the fly pulldown removal during capture, eliminating a rather tedious second step.

Originally Posted by John Benton

All the 24 I have seen from tho HV20 is interlaced.
what's this about?
How are people dealing
(Obviously you could deinterlace in your NLE - But what's the cost in Res w. the HV20?)
Thanks

[John Benton]

Thanks Anton,
I am looking into the HV 20 primarily to work with a 35mm adapter as a smaller package
btw: I love your Max patches

[Anton Marini]

Thanks! :) Im waiting to get a 35mm adaptor too. Im seriously pumped - the HV20 is the best bang for the buck ive gotten in a LONG time - I highly recommend it even without the lens adaptor!

Originally Posted by John Benton

Thanks Anton,
I am looking into the HV 20 primarily to work with a 35mm adapter as a smaller package
btw: I love your Max patches

[John Benton]

Great
Can't wait to see the results !

[Zack Birlew]

So far, all you can do is download it as 108060i HDV and reverse telecine in Compressor, that is without resorting to third-party plug-ins.

[John Benton]

great thanks to all - sorry for hijacking this thread

[Kaku Ito]

HV20's 24f don't have tags to the frames, so it does not work the same as G1/A1/H1 when you capture in FCP.

[Anton Marini]

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

HV20's 24f don't have tags to the frames, so it does not work the same as G1/A1/H1 when you capture in FCP.

Thanks Kaku, I knew the tags werent there, but I guess that means there are no magic faeries to help me out and save some time. Back to compressor it is.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Kaku Ito]

No problem, on top of that, there seems to be no automatic indication that FCP captures 24f clip from HV20, so in order to cancel the pulldown frames, you have to figure out the certain frame and certain format pattern in the Cinematools.

[Anton Marini]

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

No problem, on top of that, there seems to be no automatic indication that FCP captures 24f clip from HV20, so in order to cancel the pulldown frames, you have to figure out the certain frame and certain format pattern in the Cinematools.

Hrm, perhaps its because I got little sleep last night or am misunderstanding, but doesnt compressor find the cadence for you? At least in my tests it seems to be just fine if you select "de-interlace -> reverse telecine" option, things come out "ok" visually.

Thanks.

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

i know cineform is one of the only pieces of software thatll do a realtime inverse telecine during capture for the hv20 on pc and they have a mac version. havent used the mac version much, though.