HV20 strobing

[Aldo Visaggio]

Hello
I just purchased a canon HV20 and have been doing some testing. I've noticed strobing when pulling out from something with alot of detail. This in HDV1080i with the lens on manual. I find the 24p unuseable in my tests. I am using the HDMI output to my HD sony LCD 42 inch TV for evaluating my footage. Will 24p look better after processing through an NLE ( assuming it's done correctly )?
I have also purchased a Rode videomic/with furry dead cat ( fits nicely on the camera ) and I already had a canon wide angle lens from a previous camera which works quite well with the HV 20 ( you definitely need the wide eye ). The camera does produce beautiful images which is truly amazing for the price. I am just concerned about the strobing and unuseable 24p. Is the strobing a function of the HDV compression?
I have much more testing to do but any insights would be helpful?
Many Thanks, Aldo

[Ian G. Thompson]

Aldo...it's difficult to picture what exactly you mean by strobing. Can you post some footage examples for us to see?

[Aldo Visaggio]

I cannot post footage unfortunately. If you have this camera I'm sure you have experienced the stobing ( shimmering ), I don't think it is unique to my camera but that's what I'm trying to determine.
I think it is the HDV compression not being able to handle the amount of detail ( uneducated guess ). I am only experiencing this shimmering when filming things with alot of detail such as branches. Unfortunaetly it does limit this camera for many uses.
Thanks Ian
Aldo

[Yang Wen]

Have you worked with 24P footage before? I ask this because motion recorded in 24P inherently is "strobbier" than 60i.

[Michael Jouravlev]

I suppose you are confusing "shimmering" caused by lot of detail with strobing caused by 24fps frame rate. The "shimmering" is indeed caused by insufficient bitrate of HDV compression.

[Aldo Visaggio]

Thanks Michael and Yang
You are both bang on. To my eye I find the 24p much too stroby for use in production ( I do understand this is a consumer camera but I was hoping to use it as my B roll camera ).
I was afraid the shimmering was due to the compression of HDV. It would be difficult to avoid shooting a scene just because it had too much detail. Perhaps turning down the sharpening would help.
Is XDcam any better at filming detail, because I was planning on getting the
XDCAM EX as my main camera as I move in to HD production.
Many Thanks for clearing up these issue for me.
Regards, Aldo

[Ben Syverson]

24p too stroby for production, eh?

Someone better tell Hollywood! :)

[Aldo Visaggio]

That's funny Ben.
I'm not sure you could compare 24p from a $900 single chip camera shooting run and gun, to a big budget film project, using the best lenses, lighting and having total control. I'm just saying this a nifty little camera that can capture fanatstic images if your careful, but I can't see the 24p being usable in any situation. Having said that, this is just my initial impression and I'm looking for feedback from others using this camera.
Thanks for your comments Ben
Cheers, Aldo

[Robert Ducon]

Originally Posted by Aldo Visaggio

... but I can't see the 24p being usable in any situation.

To anyone who's interested in using/purchasing the HV20 that hasn't used/purchased yet - Aldo's statement is simply his opinion. Personally, I disagree very strongly to the above statement, so I encourage everyone interested to look at video examples by other users and better yet, try the camera yourself. I have found it's a fantastic production tool, and have recommended to others that have then gone and purchased and created great results with it. Too bad it's not working out for you Aldo - let us know how the XDCAM camera testing goes.

[Joseph H. Moore]

but I can't see the 24p being usable in any situation.

Wow. Maybe you need new glasses! ;-) I kid!

The HV20's 24P capture is as good as cameras many, many times it's price. It's an incredible tool for low budget indie production. Mine is coupled with a Brevis 35mm adapter, and the images my very small crew produced on a very fast-paced, no budget weekend were spectacular ... we could have never got the number of shots we did in the time we did using film.

[Aldo Visaggio]

Thanks for responding Robert.
Those are the comments I'm looking for that give me reason to think I have not hit the sweet spot with this camera. I hope you have noticed I have also said many times in my posts how incredible I think the footage looks in 1080i and I do intend to use this camera for production, just not in 24p untill I can figure out how to get better results. That is why I love this forum and the great people responding to posts. This camera is working out just fine and that is why I am adding accessories like crazy. I want to squeaze the best possible video and sound from this camera. I have two issues I am concerned about, which is my initial test in 24p and some shimmering on scenes with two much fine detail which I've been told is caused from HDV compression. I think tweeking and knowing this cameras strengths and weeknesses will go a long way in getting great results. I am new to HDV and 24P and I'm looking for any feedback on camera settings etc...
Thanks again for the posts!
Aldo

[Chris Barcellos]

The shimmering you are talking about may be something else altogether.

1. You may be seeing the rolling shutter effect. I have occasionally run had it occur in shots.

2 I am also curious what you are viewing when you see the effect. Have you done pull down with a program.... because you may not be doing that right. The HV20 pulldown removal cannot be done with your standard Vegas or Premiere setup. Neither can FCP unless you go through a process that they have produced a paper. If you have removed pull down without something like Cineform, then you may be seeing strobing as the result of an improper conversion to 24p. Get the Cineform trial and see if there is a difference.

3. If you are editing that the 1080 60i stream shot in 24p footage, in rendering to a new 1080 60i stream, you may run into issues there.

4. Also, what you are play you video back on can be the problem. Are you viewing it on your computer, on a HDV monitor, or what. It is possible that hardware is an issue too.

Using a program like Cineform, you can avoid these issues.

[Bruce Foreman]

Aldo, Chris is the main one I've been turning to for answers on the HV20. He's helped me quite a bit, I've had mine for less than 2 weeks now and the tests I've run are extremely promising.

First off, unless you just absolutely need the 24p frame rate for very specific reasons, you might hold off on that until you do some research on what you have to include in your workflow. I've chosen to not get involved with 24p for now. I do use the cine mode which lessens contrast, mutes colors, and uses low sharpening all to help give you more latitude in the dynamic range.

This contributes somewhat to a film like handling of image, color, and the ability to enhance mood. I've been using a similar feature on another camcorder for about a year with results that seem to please those who view my efforts.

So far, I've not seen anything objectionable in the way of strobing effect, shimmering, or anything like that. So you might run your next series of tests using cine mode, and the other non 24p modes and see what happens there. I'm gonna use this little beastie on my next production.

One of the things I do in testing is to actually edit a short sequence, render it out to both a disk file and to DVD (standard def since I'm not buying HD burners or players until we find out whose standard wins out) and view my tests under the same conditions I have to go to distribution with for now.

Hope this helps.

[Paul Tauger]

I just went through this with my new HV20.

The shimmering is caused by over-sharpening. You can eliminate almost all of it by selecting "low sharpening" in the menu, or manually setting the sharpening to -1.