hg10 vs hv20 vs xha1

Randolph Duke · November 12th, 2007, 12:04 PM

Yes I did a fast pan.
I imported the footage as DVCpro 1080i 59.94 through a Black Magic capture card.

David Saraceno · November 12th, 2007, 02:55 PM

And how did you remove pulldown to achieve 24progressive?

Stephen Eastwood · November 12th, 2007, 03:57 PM

thaks, its not a bandidth issue its an upload issue they are having an issue going up, at 120megs a piece.

I can say that the hg10 is very similar in quality and end result with a smaller filesize but the workflow is a bit more than the hv20 and as far as an actual use for a main (i don't use these for any real shooting, I have a large collection of larger cameras for that) I would prefer the hv20 for the features like zebras, and crop marks for standard 4:3 , and a few little features that I prefer which make it more like the xha1/xlh1 in actual use. As far as having instant access and the ability to friviously shoot and see footage without regard for capture time, tape use, catalogging headaches and sheer "I will use it more beause its free" I feel the hg10 or other harddrive or flash card equivalent should be in the hands of everyone who wants to experiment and learn through shooting and playing.

I have long been saying that in my career as a photographer, digital has made the largest jump in my learning because it allowed me the feeling of freedom to shoot anything for no reason other than I can at basically no cost and if its crap I just delete, where as shooting film always made me prethink more and possibly decide its not worth the time and waist of taking it, a harddrive or any solidstate camera in video is the same, not the expense of tape, but the whole workflow of capturing, labeling and archiving a tape with 35 miutes of crap shots of experimental nothing mixed in with maybe 15 minutes of stuff you may want to keep just makes it not as practical, Whats on the label? I laundry list of shots? or do you offload to computer than reload to tape which is again a time headache when there are others things I would rather be doing, so for that the HD/solid state cameras are worth more than their pricetag.

Randolph Duke · November 12th, 2007, 04:21 PM

I'm not sure what you're asking in regards to "remove pulldown for 24p"
I shot the footage using the 24p setting. It has the 24p "look".
I didn't know I needed to remove it. why? Footage looks perfect.

From what I understand- video frame pulldown is something you do for a film transfer- yes?
Maybe I'm wrong but, I can't imagine anyone shooting on these cameras needing to do that.
If you're just looking to shoot home movies that don't look like video- this camera does that as well as the HV20.

David Saraceno · November 12th, 2007, 07:10 PM

To get true 24p, and not 24p over 60, you need to remove pulldown.

Otherwise it is 24p in a 60i stream.

Michael Jouravlev · November 12th, 2007, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randolph Duke

I'm not sure what you're asking in regards to "remove pulldown for 24p" I shot the footage using the 24p setting. It has the 24p "look". I didn't know I needed to remove it. why? Footage looks perfect.

From what I understand- video frame pulldown is something you do for a film transfer- yes? Maybe I'm wrong but, I can't imagine anyone shooting on these cameras needing to do that. If you're just looking to shoot home movies that don't look like video- this camera does that as well as the HV20.

The way I understand it, telecined video may -- or may not, depending on how good your TV is -- appear good on a TV set, which is supposed to handle this stuff properly. Still, real 24p is preferred for demonstration on a computer and for true 24p timeline in an NLE. Also, true 24p video usually have smaller file size.

When one creates video from multiple pieces, which is usually the case, then editing in true 24p timeline means that you edit video consisting of full frames. If one edits in a telecined mode, then the cadence hiccups will occur at the join points, and a TV set (or an outboard deinterlacer) will have to lock onto the 3:2 cadence every time the scene is changed. Which may or may not be visible.

I have the Silicon Optix test disk and I can see how my TV and my DVD player lock onto the 3:2 cadence, it takes about a second to either (heck, I had better opinion about my OPPO DVD player) and because of the nature of the scene (race car with stands on the background) it is VERY noticeable. I am Ok with my TV locking once at the beginning of a movie, but I would not like it locking every time a scene is changed.

Therefore, editing in true 24p and then exporting to DVD either as true 24p or in telecined fashion is preferable. Telecining the whole movie ensures that there are no cadence hiccups. A DVD can be mastered in true 24p. Thus, if you have cheap/old DVD player or a TV set, the player would telecine in realtime, but if your TV accepts 24p and is able of 72Hz refresh rate, and the player can output 24p, then the resulting video will be smoother.

Randolph Duke · November 13th, 2007, 12:54 PM

My footage looks nice and smooth in the current timeline- but I'm going to export it to a Native 24p timeline and see what happens. I've always been led to believe- if you're not going to film- just keep the 24p footage in a 30i timeline. But I guess if your going to produce a progressive DVD for a progressive television- a progressive timeline makes sense.
I'm not that concerned- I'm happy with the results I'm getting.

As a side note- I used the HG10 last night on the streets of Manhattan and man does this little camera shine. I was shooting under street lamps and the footage looks incredible- colors are very nice- even the audio was better than I expected. I'm addicted to shooting with this camera- Fits in my coat pocket with ease- I do wish stock lens was wider- but I'm so happy- no more tape.

Les Dit · November 23rd, 2007, 12:48 PM

Did you see any patterns of noise in the deep shadows in these night scenes ?
My HG10 has non moving ( fixed pattern noise ) in these types of scenes.
You pan , but the pattern remains in the same screen location, like a dirty monitor.
1/24 sec exposure.24p
Just wondering.
-Les

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randolph Duke

As a side note- I used the HG10 last night on the streets of Manhattan and man does this little camera shine. I was shooting under street lamps and the footage looks incredible- colors are very nice- even the audio was better than I expected. I'm addicted to shooting with this camera- Fits in my coat pocket with ease- I do wish stock lens was wider- but I'm so happy- no more tape.

Randolph Duke · November 23rd, 2007, 06:58 PM

yes- I do get some noise in the black on low light scenes.
I assume that's the nature of the beast. My HVX shows noise in blacks in low light and that's a "pro" camera that cost 6 times as much.
For a camera as small as the HG10- and no tape- it's an OK trade off.
In bright sunlight- this camera looks best.

November 12th, 2007, 03:57 PM	#18
Stephen Eastwood Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Great Neck, NY Posts: 291	thaks, its not a bandidth issue its an upload issue they are having an issue going up, at 120megs a piece. I can say that the hg10 is very similar in quality and end result with a smaller filesize but the workflow is a bit more than the hv20 and as far as an actual use for a main (i don't use these for any real shooting, I have a large collection of larger cameras for that) I would prefer the hv20 for the features like zebras, and crop marks for standard 4:3 , and a few little features that I prefer which make it more like the xha1/xlh1 in actual use. As far as having instant access and the ability to friviously shoot and see footage without regard for capture time, tape use, catalogging headaches and sheer "I will use it more beause its free" I feel the hg10 or other harddrive or flash card equivalent should be in the hands of everyone who wants to experiment and learn through shooting and playing. I have long been saying that in my career as a photographer, digital has made the largest jump in my learning because it allowed me the feeling of freedom to shoot anything for no reason other than I can at basically no cost and if its crap I just delete, where as shooting film always made me prethink more and possibly decide its not worth the time and waist of taking it, a harddrive or any solidstate camera in video is the same, not the expense of tape, but the whole workflow of capturing, labeling and archiving a tape with 35 miutes of crap shots of experimental nothing mixed in with maybe 15 minutes of stuff you may want to keep just makes it not as practical, Whats on the label? I laundry list of shots? or do you offload to computer than reload to tape which is again a time headache when there are others things I would rather be doing, so for that the HD/solid state cameras are worth more than their pricetag. __________________ Stephen Eastwood http://www.StephenEastwood.com

November 12th, 2007, 12:04 PM	#16
Randolph Duke Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: United States Posts: 48	Yes I did a fast pan. I imported the footage as DVCpro 1080i 59.94 through a Black Magic capture card.

November 12th, 2007, 02:55 PM	#17
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	And how did you remove pulldown to achieve 24progressive?

November 12th, 2007, 04:21 PM	#19
Randolph Duke Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: United States Posts: 48	I'm not sure what you're asking in regards to "remove pulldown for 24p" I shot the footage using the 24p setting. It has the 24p "look". I didn't know I needed to remove it. why? Footage looks perfect. From what I understand- video frame pulldown is something you do for a film transfer- yes? Maybe I'm wrong but, I can't imagine anyone shooting on these cameras needing to do that. If you're just looking to shoot home movies that don't look like video- this camera does that as well as the HV20.

November 12th, 2007, 07:10 PM	#20
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	To get true 24p, and not 24p over 60, you need to remove pulldown. Otherwise it is 24p in a 60i stream.

November 13th, 2007, 12:54 PM	#22
Randolph Duke Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: United States Posts: 48	My footage looks nice and smooth in the current timeline- but I'm going to export it to a Native 24p timeline and see what happens. I've always been led to believe- if you're not going to film- just keep the 24p footage in a 30i timeline. But I guess if your going to produce a progressive DVD for a progressive television- a progressive timeline makes sense. I'm not that concerned- I'm happy with the results I'm getting. As a side note- I used the HG10 last night on the streets of Manhattan and man does this little camera shine. I was shooting under street lamps and the footage looks incredible- colors are very nice- even the audio was better than I expected. I'm addicted to shooting with this camera- Fits in my coat pocket with ease- I do wish stock lens was wider- but I'm so happy- no more tape.

November 23rd, 2007, 06:58 PM	#24
Randolph Duke Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: United States Posts: 48	yes- I do get some noise in the black on low light scenes. I assume that's the nature of the beast. My HVX shows noise in blacks in low light and that's a "pro" camera that cost 6 times as much. For a camera as small as the HG10- and no tape- it's an OK trade off. In bright sunlight- this camera looks best.