Canon HG10-What's on the "Corel Application Disc?"

[Mike Slavis]

Hi all,

Still waiting a bit longer to take the plunge on this camcorder since it sounds like I might need to purchase an "expensive" solution like Cineform to get the 24P frames out of the interlaced stream. I know people here have been looking into it, but I'm trying to keep the costs down, and I'm wondering what kind of access to the 24P video you can get from the included "Corel Application Disc". Canon states, on their website for the HG10 under "Features":

The Canon HG10 High Definition Camcorder is bundled with a powerful software suite from Corel™. WinDVD SE lets you play back your recorded video on your computer. You can also easily perform AVCHD Editing in which you can trim, reorder, and combine scenes, as well as add music, titles, and transitions. With the Corel Application Disc, you can use DVD Moviewriter SE when finished to burn your edited video onto either a full size AVCHD DVD or Standard Definition DVD.

Can someone who actually owns the camera please update this post with what is actually included...I've garnered, from various posts, that it is a Ulead application on the disc, is it VideoStudio 11 Plus, or some variation thereof (I presume Corel merged with or purchased Ulead)? It looks like, from Uleads web site, VideoStudio 11 Plus includes WinDVD SE, allows AVCHD editing and output onto DVD and HD-DVD. Hopefully someone who owns the software can confirm this.

My currently-unanswered questions are:

1) Will the included software be enough to workflow 24P video from the HG10 (specifically, simple editing like start and end times, grabbing the true 24P frames, outputting to a 1080P file or HD HDV/Blu-Ray using the true Progressive frames, not hiding them in an interlaced stream)?

2) Will the included software allow creation of 1080P output on DVD-R, HD DVD-R and/or BD-R for viewing on "set top" devices?

3) If the included software isn't enough, what is the cheapest way to get 1080P video into an archival format from the camera (with the true progressive frames) that can be written to an optical media for playback on some form of High Def set top (XBOX 360/PS3 OK too).

Am I asking too much here? I think the "big deal" is that I'm really trying to exclusively use 24 frame progressive. If I was open to interlaced video, I'm pretty sure the included software would do what I ask. I'm just looking for confirmation on whether or not it can do it for the 24p video as well.

If it can't, and there is no inexpensive alternative, it looks like the Cineform solution everyone keeps talking about will have to do. Since this appears to be an "intermediate" format, it looks like a "middleman" to an additional encoder application, which may also be an additional cost. The "cheapest" version of Cineform, HDV, looks to be $249 and I don't even know if that will work yet. My limited understanding tells me the purpose of Cineform is to actually extract the 24p frames from the interlaced original file, and save them to a true 24p format which can then be read by an application that will allow further editing and output to a 1080P medium using these true progressive frames...is that right? Given that I will only be doing simple editing, what is the most inexpensive editor that will accept the Cineform output and allow me to write it to DVD-R (High Def on a DVD), HD DVD-R or BD-R? Will the Nero Vision application included with Nero do this? Will the Movie Maker built into Windows XP or Vista do this?

Oh well, enough for now, thanks for listening, and be gentle - I'm no pro with this stuff and the learning curve is steep. I wish there was a way to take the HG10 included software for a spin with some test 24p files to see if it works, hopefully someone is willing to try it for me before I buy the cam.

mike@slavis.com

[Mike Slavis]

$899.88 from Electronics Expo through Amazon.com right now with free shipping. Hopefully somebody will reply to my post soon, or I may just wind up making an "impulse purchase"....

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-AVCHD-De...230740-3579828

mike@slavis.com

[David Sayed]

Originally Posted by Mike Slavis

Hi all,
Can someone who actually owns the camera please update this post with what is actually included...I've garnered, from various posts, that it is a Ulead application on the disc, is it VideoStudio 11 Plus, or some variation thereof (I presume Corel merged with or purchased Ulead)? It looks like, from Uleads web site, VideoStudio 11 Plus includes WinDVD SE, allows AVCHD editing and output onto DVD and HD-DVD. Hopefully someone who owns the software can confirm this.

According to the disk:
* Corel GuideMenu
* InterVideo WinDVD SE
* Ulead DVD Movie Factory SE
* Ulead DVD Movie Writer SE

My currently-unanswered questions are:

1) Will the included software be enough to workflow 24P video from the HG10 (specifically, simple editing like start and end times, grabbing the true 24P frames, outputting to a 1080P file or HD HDV/Blu-Ray using the true Progressive frames, not hiding them in an interlaced stream)?

You're hurting my head :)
The HG10 records 1080/60i by default. According to the manual, "recordings made with the PF24 frame rate are converted and recorded to the hard disk as 60i.

2) Will the included software allow creation of 1080P output on DVD-R, HD DVD-R and/or BD-R for viewing on "set top" devices?

You can only burn to DVD media - no hi-def optical media.

3) If the included software isn't enough, what is the cheapest way to get 1080P video into an archival format from the camera (with the true progressive frames) that can be written to an optical media for playback on some form of High Def set top (XBOX 360/PS3 OK too).

Am I asking too much here? I think the "big deal" is that I'm really trying to exclusively use 24 frame progressive. If I was open to interlaced video, I'm pretty sure the included software would do what I ask. I'm just looking for confirmation on whether or not it can do it for the 24p video as well.

Not really - it is working with the 60i stream that has been saved to the disk. Seems like you need something to extract the 24p frames from the 60i stream. Perhaps this is what Cineform does - I've not delved into it.

[Chris Barcellos]

Its pretty clear that we will be able to remove pull down with Cineform. See this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...943#post759943

[Mike Slavis]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I should know more personally after next week, as I "gave in" and bought one of the camcorders, since it does seem we can get the 24P information out of the stream, although I still haven't figured out the "cheapest" way to do that yet.

David, thanks for answering the question about the media used by the packaged software. It sounds like they didn't package the entire VideoStudio application, but a few select pieces. I wonder if you take a 24p video and burn it to a High Definition DVD-R (High Def on standard DVD media) if it will wind up as 1080/24p or 24p hidden within 1080/60i. This will be one of the things I will try out after I get the cam.

Chris, I've read that thread before and it sounds like Cineform will do it, it will just cost me extra $$$ over the camcorder itself. From your post on that thread:

I use Cineform's NeoHDV to capture and convert my HV20 24p tapes to true 24p .avi files

This leaves me with just a couple questions on this method as well.

1) Can you confirm that NeoHDV will do this if purchased alone? It is the cheapest of the Cineform applications (although still pricey for an amateur like me) and I want to make sure I don't get it and then need to upgrade anyway. I'm worried about:
a) The correct codecs coming with NeoHDV
b) NeoHDV somehow re-coding the 1920 x 1080 frames into 1440 x 1080 since that is the "HDV" standard

2) Can the 24p .AVIs created by Cineform be burned to HD DVD-R, BD-R or High Def DVD-R by the "built-in" Windows Movie Maker tools (I have both XP Pro and Vista Premium) or the Ulead software that comes with cam? Or anything that comes with Cineform?

3) If not, what is the cheapest way to get the 24p .AVIs onto a 24p optical disc after Cineform processing? I'm pretty sure the products you mentioned on the other thread (Vegas and Premiere) are $$$$$.

Thanks again,

mike@slavis.com

[Chris Barcellos]

This leaves me with just a couple questions on this method as well.



"1) Can you confirm that NeoHDV will do this if purchased alone? It is the cheapest of the Cineform applications (although still pricey for an amateur like me) and I want to make sure I don't get it and then need to upgrade anyway. I'm worried about:

a) The correct codecs coming with NeoHDV:"

I haven't messed with this yet, except indirectly in Vegas, when I pulled an AVCHD file into Vegas 8, and then rendered to cineform. Resulted was a beautiful and easy play file. My understanding from Les Dit post is he confirmed that with the proper AVCHD codec on line you can pull a file in the the Cineform NeoHDV program and convert it, doing pulldown in the process. He referenced a Mainconcept AVCHD codec. David Newman at Cineform confirmed that. So I believe there are two good sources for that.

"b) NeoHDV somehow re-coding the 1920 x 1080 frames into 1440 x 1080 since that is the "HDV" standard"

All HDV is 1440x1080 using an aspect ratio to displayed ot 1920 x 1080. That the way it comes off of tape. HV20 and presumably, the HG10, actually uses a 1920 x 1080 sensor, to create that HDV file. NeoHDV merely transcodes it to an avi. HD file for editing, and in the case of 24p, removes extraneous frames.

"2) Can the 24p .AVIs created by Cineform be burned to HD DVD-R, BD-R or High Def DVD-R by the "built-in" Windows Movie Maker tools (I have both XP Pro and Vista Premium) or the Ulead software that comes with cam? Or anything that comes with Cineform?"

I am not burning HD DVD content yet, as I just haven't gotten a player. I'll leave that to someone else. I have not doubt that one of the purposes of CIneform is to act as an intermediate editing file to take your project out to final HD or Blue Ray content via your Editing or burning software. I am sure that required another encode. I do not have Ulead, it didn't come with HV20, but I do use Vegas 8. According to latest update info on Vegas 8, it will prepare HD content, to burn to a Standard DVD for play on an HD DVD player. Thats good because of costs of the HD DVD or Blue Ray disks. Again, I don't have a player, and I have been playing my HD .avi files on my HDV TV, through WindowMedia Player, and I am happy with results.

"3) If not, what is the cheapest way to get the 24p .AVIs onto a 24p optical disc after Cineform processing? I'm pretty sure the products you mentioned on the other thread (Vegas and Premiere) are $$$$$."

Okay. You are right. You are talking an investment, that I haven't found a way around. There is a process out there to do pull down that involves use of free utilities (search a guy called Farnsworth on this forum for info). To me, the $250.00 or so for Cineform saves a lot of headache. If you are serious about being able to edit decently, the cheapest method is to go Vegas by going to BH Photo, ordering Vegas 6 for $ 99.00, get it shipped right away, and then upgrading to Vegas 8 for about $150.00 at the Vegas site. Vegas will also edit nicely in the HDV codec without pulldown removal, and, frankly, Canon intended the HDV24p stuff to be played in an 1080i stream for consumers anyway. We try to take it out, because it can cause some ghosting issues in edits and recompressions. So thats why we go through that trouble. Now we are talking AVCHD format with the HG10, and I think there will be similar editing capabilities there in Vegas 8, but I can't promise that.