HG10... No Line input?

[Travis Binkle]

B&H states that the HG10 has no line input for recording.

Is this true?

If it is, that would be a shame. I was hoping for a good tapeless B-camera with the possible option of being used as a "portable" hard drive for the a larger A-camera.

I'm still leaning toward it though, but not having a line in to record whatever seems like a glaring missing feature.

[Dmitriy Uchakin]

There is a mic input...

[Travis Binkle]

Yeah I saw that, but I'm interested in whether or not it has a video input.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Travis Binkle

Yeah I saw that, but I'm interested in whether or not it has a video input.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. So you wanted to take the video output of the larger A cam, and record that video to a video input on the HG10? What consumer camera can you currently use for this workflow?
I wouldn't call it a "glaring missing feature" but rather something that you want, that other consumers wouldn't even consider.

[Travis Binkle]

I was thinking of using the HG10 as Firestore like device that could convently double as a good B-camera to a XL-H1 or A1

Am I mistaken that most Cameras have a video input or at least the ability to record through the firewire port?

For instance (not that I've done this) I could run a video line from an XL-2 to a GL-2 and us the GL to record. (granted I know this is pointless as they both run tape) but the HG10 is hard drive based, so my thought is could I sell my FSC and use the money to buy a HG10 to do the same thing? plus be a B-camera when needed.

Or to put it simply: Can the HG10 be used as a "firestore"?

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Travis Binkle

Or to put it simply: Can the HG10 be used as a "firestore"?

No. Nor can any other AVCHD camcorder AFAIK.

[Travis Binkle]

Douglas, would you agree that that would be a handy feature to have on these cameras, or am I missing something?

[Michael Jouravlev]

Originally Posted by Travis Binkle

For instance (not that I've done this) I could run a video line from an XL-2 to a GL-2 and us the GL to record.

You can do this via analog input (losing video quality). I don't think you can connect two cameras via Firewire or HDMI in master-slave fashion, though I have never tried this.

Considering that cameras become more and more like computers with built-in lens, I would expect computer-like functionality from them. A host computer should send a series of commands to the camera to "print" to tape via Firewire. The question is: can XL act as a host computer? I don't think so but I will be happy to be wrong.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

I wish my Jeep could fly, too, but I have a Cessna for that, and my Cessna can't drive me to Walmart on the weekends.
Different tools, different markets.
An HDD-based storage system is a -lot- more complex than merely recording tape data. It's also not cheap. You're asking the camcorder to tap into the signal flow pre-encoder, add t/c, and a number of other things. Nice concept, but too expensive for where these camcorders are aimed. What you're asking about might appeal to 2% of the market, and Canon (or any other manufacturer) isn't going to gamble R&D on 2% of the market. Even if it was 10% of the market, they're still not going to gamble, IMO. I surely wouldn't.

[Travis Binkle]

Michael, you're right, but I'm really asking about whether the HG10 can receive a signal threw it's firewire port from a XL-H1 much like a Firestore does. And if not, is there any real reason it couldn't.


Douglas, I see your point. But I wish you were wrong.

I think a small HDD camera with a digital input could take quite a few sales away from the firestore/citidisk market. I know that a HDD camera itself eliminates the need for such add on devices, but for prosumer camera owners(and maybe we are only 10% or less of the market) it would be a win win.

Of course another thing to think about is that probably most cameras are headed towards some form of P2/SXS/HDD and that R&D is probably going towards that fact, rather than "an input to an AVCHD camera"

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

IMO, it would be absurd to shoot HDV, and capture it as AVCHD. You'd have a great image on tape and a challenged image on card.
Tape is dying a slow but constant death. CF, SDHD, memstick, HDD...these are all great storage options because of the flexibility they provide.
that said, putting Firestore and Citidisk in the same sentence is a little scary.
Prosumer camera owners are a fraction of 1% of the consumer buying market. Not even a pimple on a flea by comparison. I don't accept/agree that R&D in the consumer market is heading towards P2/SXS/HDD...the consumer market is looking for an acceptable image that meets the demands of today's displays and consumer wants.
I'd bet more R&D is going into what additional algorithms can be hooked under the "EASY" button on consumer camcorders.

[Michael Jouravlev]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

IMO, it would be absurd to shoot HDV, and capture it as AVCHD. You'd have a great image on tape and a challenged image on card.

But it won't be absurd to send uncompressed video through HDMI? Although I am personally not sure that HDMI as a standard provides enough features to control the stream, in particular to start/stop remote device.

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

I don't accept/agree that R&D in the consumer market is heading towards P2/SXS/HDD.

The consumer market is heading towards memory cards, not expensive as P2, but cheap ones. 2GB SecureDigital cards can be bought everywhere, 4GB already exist. When 16GB cards will be widely available for cheap we will forget about tapes, HDDs and miniDVDs. I bet this will happen in no more than two years.

[Travis Binkle]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

I don't accept/agree that R&D in the consumer market is heading towards P2/SXS/HDD...

I don't know... non-tape based camcorders currently out number tape based 128 to 86 on B&H. I to would bet that we're looking at the last batch of Tape based cameras in the consumer market. Consumers typically follow and want what seems "new, hip and cutting edge" I find pros sometimes more reluctant to use newer "unproven" technology. But with the P2s and XDCAMs coming out I think the switch to tapeless at least in the small businesses will come soon.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Like I said...walk into the big box stores, not B&H. B&H doesn't do a huge business by comparison, in the consumer market.
There really, truly is a world beyond on-line. Mom and Pop still use that world. Just because you and I are in *this* world doesn't by any stretch mean that they are. They walk into stores. Sears still really sells camcorders. So does Walmart.
I may work with XDCAM daily, but that doesn't mean I don't pay very close attention to what consumers do, it's a big part of what makes Sundance Media Group valuable to the industry. We research nationally. Mom and pop are buying in box stores at a significantly higher ratio than online sales. they like to touch, feel, smell, see...what they're buying before they buy it.
XDCAM and P2 have very little, if any impact on the consumer world, just as memory stick and SDHD have virtually no impact on the professional world, other than storing small profile or similar information for a pro camcorder.

Really. Honest. Try it. Walk into a store vs browsing online. It's a shocking experience for some, but well worth it.
I can't count the number of times I've been on a tradeshow floor and listened to consumer reps talk about their world to pro-product reps, and both of them are so alienated from each other it's comical.
If you would like an entertaining afternoon, talk to the consumers looking at cameras. Act like a dolt who knows nothing about cameras. Give the shopper a chance to show you how much they think they know. I promise, especially males, will go to the ends of the earth to teach you about camcorders (when they actually know very little in most cases). It's even kinda fun, and you'll invariably learn a few things along the way. :-)

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Michael Jouravlev

But it won't be absurd to send uncompressed video through HDMI? Although I am personally not sure that HDMI as a standard provides enough features to control the stream, in particular to start/stop remote device.

I'm not sure how that bears relevance to any part of this particular discussion. HDMI in the small consumer cams is there for display compatibility. Consumers aren't buying Intensity cards. Consumers certainly aren't capturing right now via Intensity cards. It may well be that at some future point, consumers will transfer

Originally Posted by Michael Jouravlev

The consumer market is heading towards memory cards, not expensive as P2, but cheap ones. 2GB SecureDigital cards can be bought everywhere, 4GB already exist. When 16GB cards will be widely available for cheap we will forget about tapes, HDDs and miniDVDs. I bet this will happen in no more than two years.

Wasn't this already said?

Originally Posted by DSE

Tape is dying a slow but constant death. CF, SDHD, memstick, HDD...these are all great storage options because of the flexibility they provide.

Consumers have already forgotten about tape, or rather, the manufacturers have already forgotten about tape for them. Go to a Best Buy/CompUSA/Circuit City/Good Guys. You'll find very few camcorders that use tape. P2 will likely never be a consumer format. Too big, too expensive, and too much flexibility for what consumers demand. As mentioned before; CF, SDHD, Memstick, HDD, DVD are all current and long-term storage options.