Preparations for Cutting

[Chris Cosic]

Ok, you are my last hope here. No one could deliver me with useful informations (at least no german forum).

So, here's my stuff:
-Canon HV20 NTSC,
-Raynox 0.66x conversion HD wideangle lense
-Rode Videomic (shotgun mic)
-Premiere CS3, Cineform Aspect HD (Demo)

What i did was:
24p Mode activated (cinema-mode) on camera and started recording.
Converted my 20 just recorded tapes to pc with Premiere CS3 + cineform option to remove pulldown, encode in progressive mode and have 24fps in the end.
My files are 20-35 GB in size now (instead of 12GB when using Premiere without cineform stuff and instead of 24fps i have 30fps).

Some people say it is wrong to convert to 24fps, wouldn't play smooth like 30fps...some say 24fps is the best there is. I don't know what to believe.
I like 24fps i guess. Runs even smoother i think than 30fps.
Some also say that you shouldn't work on your files in 24fps but rather in 30fps and after that encoding to 24fps...or something.
Anyways,
how would a pro use the HV20 to get a good performance and quality out of your vids.
And to what format shall i encode the movie at the end to have the best quality and smallest file size?

Any further informations for my work with 24fps hd files?

[Austin Meyers]

as far as frame rate goes it really depends on your taste, and/or delivery method. i personally like 24p because of the "look" of it, as well as the compression/size ramifications for putting up video on the web as well as making dvd's. 24p uses about 30% less space, so you can either encode it at a higher bitrate, or have a smaller file size and the same quality in comparison to 60i or 30p footage, this applies for the web and dvd's.

in the end though it really depends on what you're using it for. i've shot both, and stuff i want to look filmic i shoot in 24p and action stuff i tend to shoot in 60i, especially if i feel like i might want to do some slo motion effects

as far as converting, if you shoot in 24p mode it will look for the most part identical whether you remove the pulldown or not, on an interlaced tv you wouldn't be able to tell... on computer you can see in every 5 frames, 2 of them are mixed frames

for final delivery it just depends on your medium, editing and HD and then downconverting your final product to SD mpeg can create some killer looking dvd's, and for web stuff if i'm keeping it HD i usually encode using h.264 at a bitrate around 6k, if you're downconverting to SD sized i find that h264 at 1.2-1.5k is usually more than enough

[Ray Bell]

Well now that you have all of your tapes converted to the Cineform intermediate AVI file format you'll most likely want to put some or all
of it on DVD....

from the Cineform sight, here are the directions to get your footage to the
DVD....

http://cineform.com/products/TechNotes/Export2DVD.htm

[Chris Cosic]

#Thanks. I really appreciate particularly the specific informations about how the bitrate should be...so i can orientate on that matter.

To Austin:
1.)
Maybe i got you wrong, but were saying that 24fps files are smaller in size. But in my case the 60i (30fps) are 12 GB with premiere standard encoding, and with cineform aspect hd (pulldownremover, medium quality, to intermediate) i get files like 30GB. It doubles or triples the size of the video. Even if i put the quality lever to small, i get more than 12GB.
There also are quality options in aspecthd which would summon up 50GB+ filesizes :P That's mad.

2.)
What did you say about leaving a mixed mess of frames in the end product?

Austin:
"...if you shoot in 24p mode it will look for the most part identical whether you remove the pulldown or not, on an interlaced tv you wouldn't be able to tell... on computer you can see in every 5 frames, 2 of them are mixed frames"

-I still have an interlaced TV, but i won't be watching my stuff on TV but on my 22" TFT PC monitor. So this would be noticeable for my eyes? So is it not good to do?...What do you do for yourself..how do you manage to do it without thinking that you could have gotten far better results had you done it some other kinda way.


Ok, good information about that slowmotion thing. If i wanted to do slowmotion i 'd surely use 60i now and thanks for that link to cineform about the finalization to DVD.

[Austin Meyers]

#1: you're comparing apples to oranges, the cineform codec recompresses using a different codec at different bitrates, if you were to encode both 60 and 24 with the same codec at the same bitrate that's when you'd see the size difference.

2: i personally always remove the pulldown, because i never get to see it on an hdtv, i either go straight to web or to dvd which supports 24p. if you watch 24-in-60 footage you will notice a combing effect on 2 out of every 5 frames, which some people (like myself) find annoying.

as far a getting good results, i've done it everyway i can think of. simple process of elimination and then tweaking from there.

[Chris Cosic]

So, if i leave my 24p cinema videos in the 60i (30fps) format like everyone else does with premiere (without that 500$ cineform aspect hd), then i generally have better results on my 22" TFT and Bravia LCD Full HD Screen?
Where do i get the "annoying" effect...in the 24fps or 30fps..?

What is "24-in-60" footage? I think i see better, smoother results on my pc monitor when converting with aspect hd to pure 24fps.
30fps lags a bit...i think. it may be coincidence.

I really want to leave this option for the future, when i have a full hd tv.
I'd hate myself if i notice that all my work with my clips was in vain...and didn't get the best result for the tv.

I cannot start working with my files unless i know how to begin...with which file format (24fps or 30fps)...want to be able to play the videos on Full HD TV and PC TFT witht the best resolution and no annoying effect or funny stuff.
There has to be such a way...

[Joseph H. Moore]

First, are you sure you recorded 24P? "CINE" mode is not 24P, they are two complimentary, but completely independent settings.

24P is here: MENU > REC/IN SETUP > HDV STANDARD > HDV(PF24)

CINE is one of the PROGRAM modes.

[Chris Cosic]

Yep. i did 24p (for that special look, as it is known) and cinema mode (for that particular enhanced cinema feeling).

One extra question: I have heard just now about something called a 35mm adaptor that you have to have if you're making short movies.
What is it about? And do i need it for my films?

But my mainquestion still remains mostly unanswered.
Which framerate should i choose when recording in 24p: 24fps or 30fps for my movies (to be able to watch on plasma, lcd TV and pc TFTs in highquality and without any annoying jumping or glitches on screen)?

Please no philosophical answers...it may sound a little harsh, but i have not much time left in my holidays...i have to finally start working on them. :)
How do pros do it (who want to show other people on HD TV what they have created...not just for the internet)?

[Austin Meyers]

you don't have to have a 35mm adapter, they are nice though. it just allows you to use 35mm film lenses with the camera to achieve an even more filmic look

either way you record them, if you are playing them off the camera, will play on a plasma tv, and you won't see any "glitching." you just see the glitching on a progressive (computer) monitor, and if you leave the file as 60i and output it either back to camera or dvd etc if you watch it on a regular or hd tv you won't see any glitches either. so essentially you only see the pulldown on computer screens, and if your main target is a computer screen that's when it's good to remove the pulldown. and if you are shooting the 30fps it helps to deinterlace if you're going to be watching on a computer, deinterlacing will make the image not quite as smooth on a regular/hd tv though.

hope that helps

[Joseph H. Moore]

One extra question: I have heard just now about something called a 35mm adaptor that you have to have if you're making short movies.
What is it about? And do i need it for my films?

One of the hallmarks of good, dramatic cinematography is controlling the depth of field (DOF) to draw attention to your subject. (i.e. bluring the background.) This is nearly impossible to do with a 1/3" imager (what is in your camera) but is easily accomplished with fast 35mm lenses and a 35mm imaging area. A 35mm adapter "projects" the image from a 35mm lens onto a piece of ground glass, and then the video camera records this projected image. The tradeoff is usually a some sharpness and some loss of light.

[Chris Cosic]

To be sure for the last time now...when i am using 24fps for playing on a FullHD LCD TV it doesn't look "crappy" or anything like "this is called hd quality? Just look at the lags and the picture is moving jerkily, oh did i just notice a brief stopping of a frame?,...and the colors are kinda messed up!!", right?
There isn't a big difference, is there?

Oh rats, i thought this decision would be easier.
A FullHD TV seems to be way more different compared to a 22" TFT than i thought...so 30fps look good on TV...but 24 not. But on PC 24fps look good, on TV not so good. Am i right, or am i totally confused? :O I wonder what this "not so good" means...maybe slightly worse?

[Austin Meyers]

there are slight draw back either way, the best thing to do is just shoot with it and figure out which you like best... it's funny cause the other day i was reviewing some footage on my girlfriends tv and she was like "that footage looks different... more ... like a movie" she has no concept of what 24p vs 60i is but she could tell it looked different and "better". it's really just in the eye of the beholder.

[Joseph H. Moore]

If you're looking at the footage via HDMI or component, then you're watching your footage as a 60i stream, no matter how it was encoded. There is nary a TV in existenance that can't handle 60i correctly.

[Chris Cosic]

To Joseph:
So, even when i have my videos in true 24fps, on TV it will be 60i anyway, right?

To Austin:
What were you showing her, 24fps or 30fps (60i)?

[Joseph H. Moore]

If you're playing out the HDMI or the component outputs, yes. The camera "records" 24P, but it only outputs 60i.