I think it is broken ;-( XM-2 red-problem at DVinfo.net

Lars Siden · March 26th, 2003, 01:27 PM

Hi, Finally I got my new camera! Tested it only for a couple of minutes yesterday, transfered the video to my PC(premiere 6.5), and was NOT satisfied! OK, I thought - I need to read the manual... so I spent a couple of hours reading/experimenting & testing. The result was better, BUT - The camera can't capture RED. Everything moving that is solid red ( like a red jacket on a person ) is blocky and "ghosty".

I've tried setting up my own custom profile where I desaturate and turns the picture towards green, same result.

Seeing several people here on the forum complaining about the same thing, I wonder if this can be a bad "batch" of cameras?

To see what I mean, please visit my website at:

http://lazze.dns2go.com/xm2red

There you will find 3 grabbed frames, please download them and zoom in the RED parts on the pictures and you will clearly see what I mean!

I'm almost on my way posting these pictures to a Canon office.

Best regards,

Lars Siden

Sweden

Lars Siden · March 26th, 2003, 01:41 PM

Just wanted to say that I have made a formal complaint at Canon Sweden. We'll see what they say!

// Lazze

Bud Kuenzli · March 26th, 2003, 02:35 PM

I don't get it. Without "zooming" in on the reds, I see no difference between them and the other colors, and with a jpg at 72dpi, zooming in doesn't make much sense. If you have a high resolution original from the card and want to post it you might get more interest but nothing much can be gotten from zooming in on a 72dpi compressed image.

Lars Siden · March 26th, 2003, 02:43 PM

>I don't get it. Without "zooming" in on the reds, I see no >difference between them and the other colors, and with a jpg at >72dpi, zooming in doesn't make much sense. If you have a high >esolution original from the card and want to post it you might >et more interest but nothing much can be gotten from zooming >in on a 72dpi compressed image.

Hello Bud,

If you bear with me and do zoom in on the red parts you'll notice that they are blocky and ugly. If you zoom somewhere else in the picture ( on blue or black ) the surface will be calm an "ordinary jpeg".

It is also very clear when playing the original movie from which I grabbed these frames. I could try to make small clip from the AVI and post it.

// Lazze

Bud Kuenzli · March 26th, 2003, 04:36 PM

I wonder if there is something wrong with your camera? if this were a problem with every camera it would have (I think) been discussed at great length. I see no such problem with any of the reds from my gl2. at first I figured that the problem was being introduced in software somewhere along the line, but if you are seeing it in uncompressed dv footage...when you say you see it in the pics that you grabbed from the film, how was it done? can you see this when you play your camera back directly to a high quality monitor? could the problem be in how you are capturing the picture? I think it must be in that process or you have a defective camera; I don't think it is a trait of the gl2 line of cameras.

Benjamin Taft · March 26th, 2003, 05:07 PM

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with your new cam Lazze. The blockyness is quite visible in the video clip you posted. That problem should be visible even on a regular 28" TV set through a s-video connection from the camera, so give Buds suggestion a try, to rule out any software/computer errors.

Steve Nunez · March 26th, 2003, 07:15 PM

I saw this problem once with my XL1S- but not the GL2....a video anomaly?

Marc Martin · March 26th, 2003, 08:38 PM

I have some problems too with Red.

Look this picture:
http://marcolivier.free.fr/temp1/motocross1.jpg

zoom part of the picture:
http://marcolivier.free.fr/temp1/motocross2.jpg

I know the 4.1.1 reduction can makes some loosing colors lines, but not as this.

The picture was extracted from a video (it's not a photo), full zoom. Others settings are on the screen. It's an XM2 not a GL2.

Aaron Rosen · March 26th, 2003, 10:27 PM

At least you have got a great supject to film...

Aaron Koolen · March 26th, 2003, 10:53 PM

Marc the XM2 has 4:2:0 compression, not 4:1:1. I'm not sure if this will matter in your results though.

Aaron

Yik Kuen · March 26th, 2003, 11:25 PM

Hi guys,

I'm getting an XM2 next week. Please tell me if I should hold or look for another cam. I sold my 950 for XM2.

Please tell me if this artifact is also visible even if it's connected directly to the tv.

Thank you.

Graham Bernard · March 27th, 2003, 01:09 AM

As Yik says, try a piece to TV. Of course ensure that the TV is set up with correct colour saturation - if that's the correct word - so you can confirm your observations.

I'm not clever enough to make a comment on the JPG versus TV decoded finished product, but somewhere in there is an answer. I too noticed a certain de-sensitivity or over enthusiastic response to reds while filming a large red area, until a friend adjusted his TV set to accomodate the "fresh" image.

Yik Kuen · March 27th, 2003, 02:03 AM

Hi,

I'm very worried now. I've sold my 950 which gives excellent quality in exchange for better manual control and more natural color reproduction.

What other cam worth getting that falls within this price range if not the XM2? Please suggest.

I'll be getting the XM2 not the GL2 here in Singapore. Seems like the PAL version is worse, is it becoz of its higher pixel count in pixel-shifting technique, 470K vs 410K NTSC?

I've seen those images/video posted here, it's totally unacceptable.

Thank you.

Lars Siden · March 27th, 2003, 03:40 AM

Hello Guys,

Thanks for your input!

Will try a "TV test" tonight. I will also remove my filter on the camera(skylight).

But I think that even if it isn't so visible on the TV, this is still an error. All other colors looks good, why not red? An expensive camera like this should be able to produce outstanding quality, both for TV and for computer output.

I have also tried to de-interlace the AVI for computer playback, no visble change.

I'll be back ;-) ( sorry, couldn't hold myself )

// Lazze

PS: Aaron, Yep - she is a beautiful little girl ds.

Marc Martin · March 27th, 2003, 09:00 AM

Connected to the TV, the problem is near to invisible to see, but I can see a little bleed in the red however.

March 26th, 2003, 01:27 PM	#1
Lars Siden Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sweden, Stockholm Posts: 469	Got my Brand new XM-2 , satisfied? NO! This camera can't handle the colour RED Hi, Finally I got my new camera! Tested it only for a couple of minutes yesterday, transfered the video to my PC(premiere 6.5), and was NOT satisfied! OK, I thought - I need to read the manual... so I spent a couple of hours reading/experimenting & testing. The result was better, BUT - The camera can't capture RED. Everything moving that is solid red ( like a red jacket on a person ) is blocky and "ghosty". I've tried setting up my own custom profile where I desaturate and turns the picture towards green, same result. Seeing several people here on the forum complaining about the same thing, I wonder if this can be a bad "batch" of cameras? To see what I mean, please visit my website at: http://lazze.dns2go.com/xm2red There you will find 3 grabbed frames, please download them and zoom in the RED parts on the pictures and you will clearly see what I mean! I'm almost on my way posting these pictures to a Canon office. Best regards, Lars Siden Sweden __________________ Sony HDR-CX130,Canon 5DMKII,i7 930@4.0, 12gb memory, 3x SSD + 2x1Tb(stripe), Geforce 480, Dual 24", Win 7 x64

March 26th, 2003, 01:41 PM	#2
Lars Siden Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sweden, Stockholm Posts: 469	Just wanted to say that I have made a formal complaint at Canon Sweden. We'll see what they say! // Lazze __________________ Sony HDR-CX130,Canon 5DMKII,i7 930@4.0, 12gb memory, 3x SSD + 2x1Tb(stripe), Geforce 480, Dual 24", Win 7 x64

March 26th, 2003, 02:35 PM	#3
Bud Kuenzli Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 197	huh? I don't get it. Without "zooming" in on the reds, I see no difference between them and the other colors, and with a jpg at 72dpi, zooming in doesn't make much sense. If you have a high resolution original from the card and want to post it you might get more interest but nothing much can be gotten from zooming in on a 72dpi compressed image. __________________ on the Internet, when you get where you're going you still don't know where you are

March 26th, 2003, 02:43 PM	#4
Lars Siden Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sweden, Stockholm Posts: 469	>I don't get it. Without "zooming" in on the reds, I see no >difference between them and the other colors, and with a jpg at >72dpi, zooming in doesn't make much sense. If you have a high >esolution original from the card and want to post it you might >et more interest but nothing much can be gotten from zooming >in on a 72dpi compressed image. Hello Bud, If you bear with me and do zoom in on the red parts you'll notice that they are blocky and ugly. If you zoom somewhere else in the picture ( on blue or black ) the surface will be calm an "ordinary jpeg". It is also very clear when playing the original movie from which I grabbed these frames. I could try to make small clip from the AVI and post it. // Lazze __________________ Sony HDR-CX130,Canon 5DMKII,i7 930@4.0, 12gb memory, 3x SSD + 2x1Tb(stripe), Geforce 480, Dual 24", Win 7 x64

March 26th, 2003, 04:36 PM	#5
Bud Kuenzli Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 197	an oddity or problem with your camera? I wonder if there is something wrong with your camera? if this were a problem with every camera it would have (I think) been discussed at great length. I see no such problem with any of the reds from my gl2. at first I figured that the problem was being introduced in software somewhere along the line, but if you are seeing it in uncompressed dv footage...when you say you see it in the pics that you grabbed from the film, how was it done? can you see this when you play your camera back directly to a high quality monitor? could the problem be in how you are capturing the picture? I think it must be in that process or you have a defective camera; I don't think it is a trait of the gl2 line of cameras. __________________ on the Internet, when you get where you're going you still don't know where you are

March 26th, 2003, 05:07 PM	#6
Benjamin Taft Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden Posts: 52	Sorry to hear that you are having problems with your new cam Lazze. The blockyness is quite visible in the video clip you posted. That problem should be visible even on a regular 28" TV set through a s-video connection from the camera, so give Buds suggestion a try, to rule out any software/computer errors.

March 26th, 2003, 07:15 PM	#7
Steve Nunez Trustee Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pembroke Pines, Florida Posts: 1,418	I saw this problem once with my XL1S- but not the GL2....a video anomaly? __________________ Steve Nunez-New York City www.stevenunez.com

March 26th, 2003, 08:38 PM	#8
Marc Martin Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Paris, France Posts: 80	I have some problems too with Red. Look this picture: http://marcolivier.free.fr/temp1/motocross1.jpg zoom part of the picture: http://marcolivier.free.fr/temp1/motocross2.jpg I know the 4.1.1 reduction can makes some loosing colors lines, but not as this. The picture was extracted from a video (it's not a photo), full zoom. Others settings are on the screen. It's an XM2 not a GL2.

March 26th, 2003, 10:27 PM	#9
Aaron Rosen Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: HB, CA - USA Posts: 298	At least you have got a great supject to film...

March 26th, 2003, 10:53 PM	#10
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Marc the XM2 has 4:2:0 compression, not 4:1:1. I'm not sure if this will matter in your results though. Aaron

March 26th, 2003, 11:25 PM	#11
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi guys, I'm getting an XM2 next week. Please tell me if I should hold or look for another cam. I sold my 950 for XM2. Please tell me if this artifact is also visible even if it's connected directly to the tv. Thank you.

March 27th, 2003, 01:09 AM	#12
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Try TV Test As Yik says, try a piece to TV. Of course ensure that the TV is set up with correct colour saturation - if that's the correct word - so you can confirm your observations. I'm not clever enough to make a comment on the JPG versus TV decoded finished product, but somewhere in there is an answer. I too noticed a certain de-sensitivity or over enthusiastic response to reds while filming a large red area, until a friend adjusted his TV set to accomodate the "fresh" image.

March 27th, 2003, 02:03 AM	#13
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi, I'm very worried now. I've sold my 950 which gives excellent quality in exchange for better manual control and more natural color reproduction. What other cam worth getting that falls within this price range if not the XM2? Please suggest. I'll be getting the XM2 not the GL2 here in Singapore. Seems like the PAL version is worse, is it becoz of its higher pixel count in pixel-shifting technique, 470K vs 410K NTSC? I've seen those images/video posted here, it's totally unacceptable. Thank you.

March 27th, 2003, 03:40 AM	#14
Lars Siden Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sweden, Stockholm Posts: 469	Hello Guys, Thanks for your input! Will try a "TV test" tonight. I will also remove my filter on the camera(skylight). But I think that even if it isn't so visible on the TV, this is still an error. All other colors looks good, why not red? An expensive camera like this should be able to produce outstanding quality, both for TV and for computer output. I have also tried to de-interlace the AVI for computer playback, no visble change. I'll be back ;-) ( sorry, couldn't hold myself ) // Lazze PS: Aaron, Yep - she is a beautiful little girl ds. __________________ Sony HDR-CX130,Canon 5DMKII,i7 930@4.0, 12gb memory, 3x SSD + 2x1Tb(stripe), Geforce 480, Dual 24", Win 7 x64

March 27th, 2003, 09:00 AM	#15
Marc Martin Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Paris, France Posts: 80	Connected to the TV, the problem is near to invisible to see, but I can see a little bleed in the red however.