originally shot frame/normal & GL1/2 XL1 at DVinfo.net

Trey Perrone · March 14th, 2003, 01:20 AM

Ok a few diff questions here, see if you can bear with me...

This first one might sound dumb...
If you shoot in frame mode and then switch over to normal and open up an NLE, the original footage is frame mode regardless correct? Vice versa, if i shot footage in normal and switched over to frame and starting capturing into a NLE the footage would be interlaced? I seem to recall somewhere that said if you wanted to capture a still then switch to frame to make it look good (canon manual maybe?) I've scoured the various frame vs normal articles and everyone talks about quality and vertical loss, and programs to switch between progressive/interlaced, but didnt seem to find this info...ive always shot in frame because it was recommended. Lately, though, i've felt more of a need to really fine tune my use of the GL1 (soon to get a GL2 and XL1s) to get the most bang for my buck.

Also has anyone noticed any difference between using frame mode on the GL1 and GL2? I've read that the XL1 picture is slightly different than the GL1 in frame mode, but the CCD's are different and the presets are slight diff too, so i would think that attributes to that. Any info or opinions are greatly appreciated! I know these questions may have been covered somewhere in the past but i couldnt seem to find what i needed...thanks guys!

Ken Tanaka · March 14th, 2003, 01:29 AM

Trey,
Indeed, the camera's setting (Frame -vs- Normal) has no effect whatsoever on the capture process from the camera to your computer. If you shot footage in Frame mode, it will arrive as Frame mode footage to your computer.

I've owned both the GL2 and GL1 and can't say that there is a notable fundamental difference between Frame mode on the two. The most noticeable difference is the GL2's higher resolution and new adjustments for sharpness and gain. The XL1S' standard image is slightly different warmer and softer than the GL2's, but they can easily be matched through adjustment on either side. The GL2 actually has slightly higher image resolution.

Trey Perrone · March 14th, 2003, 10:17 PM

would you say the difference is very noticable between the XL1s (with 1/3" pixel shift) and the GL2 (with 1/4" pix shift)? when i first started looking at the GL2 i thought Canon was crazy for making it have a better pixel resolution than the flagship prosumer XL1s. Then someone mentioned that the CCD chips were diff sizes and i started looking into it a little more. My dad and i will prob be gettin a GL2 in the next month and the webpage i do sports vids for my boss has O.K.'ed me finding an XL1s, so i will get to experiment further with both cams hands on. Although i am somewhat familar with handling cams and editing software, i am just now learning how to manually adjust the exposure/fstop, etc... I want to learn as much as i can because a lot of the vid i do is sports (football) which i cannot necessarily control the conditions of the weather/lighting. I want to capture the events the best i can. here are a few clips ive done, but hopefully with filters and some manual settings i can further improve my shooting in the future.

here are some past clips from last year mostly

http://insidecarolina.org/commits/03/kedra/kedtack1.wmv
http://insidecarolina.org/commits/03...i/cangtd2b.wmv
http://insidecarolina.org/commits/03...si/cangtd3.wmv
http://insidecarolina.org/archive02/texas/duranttd.wmv
http://insidecarolina.org/archive02/texas/borders.wmv
http://insidecarolina.org/shrinebowl/huntersackdl.wmv
http://insidecarolina.org/shrinebowl/Nmasoncat4.wmv

this last one is me gettin run over ;-)
http://www.perrone.us/clemson/icmeetsreid.wmv
had alot of probs slowing it down and trying to keep the audio, but hey i still held onto the cam. I didnt even know it was still shooting the whole time. Although the impact screwed up the timecode on the tape so i could never pull in the full clip from my angle.

Ken Tanaka · March 14th, 2003, 11:00 PM

Trey,
You'll find that the GL2 and XL1S can produce very comparable results. I routinely edit footage from both together and am normally at a loss to tell them apart without checking my tape log.

I'm a Mac user and was unable to view your videos (despite having Windows Media player installed). Sorry.

Despite the amount of discussion and debate you'll see here and elsewhere, the particular camera you select within the prosumer range is perhaps the least important matter contributing to your success and enjoyment. All of today's prosumer cameras (GL2, XL1S, VX2000, PD150, DXV100, et.al.) are outstanding devices capable of producing amazing results. But they all produce basically the same results as a $200 Best Buy special in inexperienced hands.

In my opinion there are two much more important factors.

1. As you remarked, " I want to learn as much as i can...", learn everything you can possibly learn about about the camera. Practice, review, practice, review, ... Every camera has it's own character and idiosyncrasies. Learn how to master yours and practice smooth, controlled, deliberate camera movement.

2. Become a student of light. I know you plan to shoot sporting events and will have little control of lighting. Nevertheless, developing a keen eye for lighting conditions, as well as for anticipating action, will produce real results over time. Regardless of your subject light is the paint of the film and video media.

Have a ball with your new camera!

Trey Perrone · March 15th, 2003, 12:29 AM

aahhhhh...mac isnt up to wmp9 spec yet. the clips are encoded in wmp9....i think MAC only supports wmp7 or maybe its up to 8. not many people know but the newer version of REAL plays them. the helix 6.0 and up (free). thanks for the tips though, im thinking about getting a circ polarizer for outdoor shots and to reduce glare off of helmets. hopefully i'll be gettin the XL1s and GL2 soon so i can start fiddling with them soon.
too bad you can't see my clips i was hoping to get some feedback from some more experienced ppl!

Rob Unck · March 16th, 2003, 01:21 AM

Hey Trey,

Those clips look very sweet. I noticed your note about not being able to capture the footage from your angle due to the collision causing the timecode to get screwed up.

There may be a solution. I had a similar problem: for some reason I couldn't capture the first few seconds of a shot on my GL2 due to timecode errors (I was capturing through Avid Xpress DV on a PC) and my videographer buddy suggested I transfer the footage to another camera via firewire and then try to capture from the new tape. It actually worked.

Give it a try and let me know if it works for you. (And if it does, post the footage from your angle!)

As for GL2 vs XL1s, all I can say is I sold my XL1 (no 's') specifically to buy a GL2, after doing much comparing of the XL1s and the GL2 at the local camera shop. Couldn't be happier with the GL2 and I wouldn't even take an XL1s in an even trade, although it truly is a matter of just what each shooter/videographer prefers. You can't go wrong with either camera.

Take a tape to your local Canon dealer and take the XL1s and GL2 through their paces in the parking lot, watch the tape and buy the one that gave you the images you like, and the features that you need, that was the most comfortable to use.

Rob
RobustFilms.com

Trey Perrone · March 16th, 2003, 02:27 AM

hey thanks alot for your feedback. i was able to use some of my angle in the shot, but the point of impact caused an issue where about less than a second couldnt be captured. your idea of copying to another tape would prob work, but i pretty much used as much of my angle as i needed for that sequence i believe. i do need to redo the clip and polish the audio up or something.

It looks like i may get the best of both worlds...my boss for insidecarolina has ok'ed me to find an XL1s and im in the process of startin my own little company and will get a GL2 for that. And i still have a GL1 from insidecarolina within my grasps...

I really enjoyed some of the shorts on your page, very interesting. im hoping to maybe move more in that direction on my own a bit. good to talk at you, hope to see that Survivor Parody, looks like a winner! Ill try and check back for it, please let us know when you get it up!

March 14th, 2003, 01:20 AM	#1
Trey Perrone Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 155	improving clips frame/normal & GL1/2 XL1 Ok a few diff questions here, see if you can bear with me... This first one might sound dumb... If you shoot in frame mode and then switch over to normal and open up an NLE, the original footage is frame mode regardless correct? Vice versa, if i shot footage in normal and switched over to frame and starting capturing into a NLE the footage would be interlaced? I seem to recall somewhere that said if you wanted to capture a still then switch to frame to make it look good (canon manual maybe?) I've scoured the various frame vs normal articles and everyone talks about quality and vertical loss, and programs to switch between progressive/interlaced, but didnt seem to find this info...ive always shot in frame because it was recommended. Lately, though, i've felt more of a need to really fine tune my use of the GL1 (soon to get a GL2 and XL1s) to get the most bang for my buck. Also has anyone noticed any difference between using frame mode on the GL1 and GL2? I've read that the XL1 picture is slightly different than the GL1 in frame mode, but the CCD's are different and the presets are slight diff too, so i would think that attributes to that. Any info or opinions are greatly appreciated! I know these questions may have been covered somewhere in the past but i couldnt seem to find what i needed...thanks guys! __________________ Trey Perrone

March 14th, 2003, 01:29 AM	#2
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Trey, Indeed, the camera's setting (Frame -vs- Normal) has no effect whatsoever on the capture process from the camera to your computer. If you shot footage in Frame mode, it will arrive as Frame mode footage to your computer. I've owned both the GL2 and GL1 and can't say that there is a notable fundamental difference between Frame mode on the two. The most noticeable difference is the GL2's higher resolution and new adjustments for sharpness and gain. The XL1S' standard image is slightly different warmer and softer than the GL2's, but they can easily be matched through adjustment on either side. The GL2 actually has slightly higher image resolution. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

March 14th, 2003, 10:17 PM	#3
Trey Perrone Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 155	would you say the difference is very noticable between the XL1s (with 1/3" pixel shift) and the GL2 (with 1/4" pix shift)? when i first started looking at the GL2 i thought Canon was crazy for making it have a better pixel resolution than the flagship prosumer XL1s. Then someone mentioned that the CCD chips were diff sizes and i started looking into it a little more. My dad and i will prob be gettin a GL2 in the next month and the webpage i do sports vids for my boss has O.K.'ed me finding an XL1s, so i will get to experiment further with both cams hands on. Although i am somewhat familar with handling cams and editing software, i am just now learning how to manually adjust the exposure/fstop, etc... I want to learn as much as i can because a lot of the vid i do is sports (football) which i cannot necessarily control the conditions of the weather/lighting. I want to capture the events the best i can. here are a few clips ive done, but hopefully with filters and some manual settings i can further improve my shooting in the future. here are some past clips from last year mostly http://insidecarolina.org/commits/03/kedra/kedtack1.wmv http://insidecarolina.org/commits/03...i/cangtd2b.wmv http://insidecarolina.org/commits/03...si/cangtd3.wmv http://insidecarolina.org/archive02/texas/duranttd.wmv http://insidecarolina.org/archive02/texas/borders.wmv http://insidecarolina.org/shrinebowl/huntersackdl.wmv http://insidecarolina.org/shrinebowl/Nmasoncat4.wmv this last one is me gettin run over ;-) http://www.perrone.us/clemson/icmeetsreid.wmv had alot of probs slowing it down and trying to keep the audio, but hey i still held onto the cam. I didnt even know it was still shooting the whole time. Although the impact screwed up the timecode on the tape so i could never pull in the full clip from my angle. __________________ Trey Perrone

March 14th, 2003, 11:00 PM	#4
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Trey, You'll find that the GL2 and XL1S can produce very comparable results. I routinely edit footage from both together and am normally at a loss to tell them apart without checking my tape log. I'm a Mac user and was unable to view your videos (despite having Windows Media player installed). Sorry. Despite the amount of discussion and debate you'll see here and elsewhere, the particular camera you select within the prosumer range is perhaps the least important matter contributing to your success and enjoyment. All of today's prosumer cameras (GL2, XL1S, VX2000, PD150, DXV100, et.al.) are outstanding devices capable of producing amazing results. But they all produce basically the same results as a $200 Best Buy special in inexperienced hands. In my opinion there are two much more important factors. 1. As you remarked, " I want to learn as much as i can...", learn everything you can possibly learn about about the camera. Practice, review, practice, review, ... Every camera has it's own character and idiosyncrasies. Learn how to master yours and practice smooth, controlled, deliberate camera movement. 2. Become a student of light. I know you plan to shoot sporting events and will have little control of lighting. Nevertheless, developing a keen eye for lighting conditions, as well as for anticipating action, will produce real results over time. Regardless of your subject light is the paint of the film and video media. Have a ball with your new camera! __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

March 15th, 2003, 12:29 AM	#5
Trey Perrone Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 155	aahhhhh...mac isnt up to wmp9 spec yet. the clips are encoded in wmp9....i think MAC only supports wmp7 or maybe its up to 8. not many people know but the newer version of REAL plays them. the helix 6.0 and up (free). thanks for the tips though, im thinking about getting a circ polarizer for outdoor shots and to reduce glare off of helmets. hopefully i'll be gettin the XL1s and GL2 soon so i can start fiddling with them soon. too bad you can't see my clips i was hoping to get some feedback from some more experienced ppl! __________________ Trey Perrone

March 16th, 2003, 01:21 AM	#6
Rob Unck Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Södertälje, Sweden Posts: 59	Screwed-up timecode Hey Trey, Those clips look very sweet. I noticed your note about not being able to capture the footage from your angle due to the collision causing the timecode to get screwed up. There may be a solution. I had a similar problem: for some reason I couldn't capture the first few seconds of a shot on my GL2 due to timecode errors (I was capturing through Avid Xpress DV on a PC) and my videographer buddy suggested I transfer the footage to another camera via firewire and then try to capture from the new tape. It actually worked. Give it a try and let me know if it works for you. (And if it does, post the footage from your angle!) As for GL2 vs XL1s, all I can say is I sold my XL1 (no 's') specifically to buy a GL2, after doing much comparing of the XL1s and the GL2 at the local camera shop. Couldn't be happier with the GL2 and I wouldn't even take an XL1s in an even trade, although it truly is a matter of just what each shooter/videographer prefers. You can't go wrong with either camera. Take a tape to your local Canon dealer and take the XL1s and GL2 through their paces in the parking lot, watch the tape and buy the one that gave you the images you like, and the features that you need, that was the most comfortable to use. Rob RobustFilms.com

March 16th, 2003, 02:27 AM	#7
Trey Perrone Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 155	hey thanks alot for your feedback. i was able to use some of my angle in the shot, but the point of impact caused an issue where about less than a second couldnt be captured. your idea of copying to another tape would prob work, but i pretty much used as much of my angle as i needed for that sequence i believe. i do need to redo the clip and polish the audio up or something. It looks like i may get the best of both worlds...my boss for insidecarolina has ok'ed me to find an XL1s and im in the process of startin my own little company and will get a GL2 for that. And i still have a GL1 from insidecarolina within my grasps... I really enjoyed some of the shorts on your page, very interesting. im hoping to maybe move more in that direction on my own a bit. good to talk at you, hope to see that Survivor Parody, looks like a winner! Ill try and check back for it, please let us know when you get it up! __________________ Trey Perrone