The Dvinfo.net Dvd at DVinfo.net

Jed Williamson · January 13th, 2003, 11:05 PM

Since I have no access to renting/borrowing high end camcorders I tried to come up with a possible solution for me and lots of others who don't have such access to try out models before plunking down a coupla of grand.

THE DVINFO.NET DVD
20-30 minutes or so of footage from the different camcorders

Different scenes/lighting all sorts of things but at least a way to visually compare.

Maybe it could be part of a package for a membership club or something. like $25 for 2 dvd-r's of footage and a year membership(newsletter/dvd etc)

Any volunteers for GL2 footage? Any volunteers to put it together?

I can volunteer $25-50 :)

Chris Hurd · January 13th, 2003, 11:55 PM

Believe it or not, I've actually been mulling this idea over for several weeks now. With my contacts in Austin, I can gather an XL1S, GL2, PD150, DV300 and DVX100 and have them in the same time and place for comparison. The only real question is the format of the tests... I'm open to suggestions. The only way I can see this being viable is to have all cameras together under the exact same conditions pointed at the same thing, which is why I'd prefer to do it in Austin at one time.

Don Palomaki · January 14th, 2003, 05:47 AM

Bowl of fruit.
Doll
Resolution target
Typicaly Studio 3400K lighting
Default camcorder settings
Light metered scene
Good light & moderately poor light
Sample of shooting modes (e.g., movie and frame mode)
But with MPEG, the authoring and compression software can have an effect, so native DV files might be the better format on the DVD.

Zac Stein · January 14th, 2003, 06:32 AM

Yeah would be kind of cool to also do a full on set of split screens with all the cameras going at once, but again i would prefer moving targets as well, so we can once and for all end the "my xl1s in frame mode looks jerky when panning" discussions.

zac

Jeff Donald · January 14th, 2003, 07:09 AM

I think you would need to shoot outdoor scenes as well. But you would have to roll them all at the same time. I've seen too many outdoor comparisons under different lighting conditions. In those cases, a good comparison could not be made (even though the origininators would attempt to).

I agree with Don, native DV will be best. but even then we'll be looking at NLE codecs, which are subject to debate by some.

Jeff

Jed Williamson · January 14th, 2003, 10:40 AM

How cool to have some interest in this!!!

Austin sounds like a great place to shoot some comparison footage. I just looked at the event calendar for Austin.

Maybe you could use the Inaugural Parade as an event Jan 21st. (maybe too soon) or Mardi Gras end of Feb.

If this is put on a DVD as DV footage would that be an avi file? Either way i belive you could fit only 20 mins per disc that way. So 1 disc per camera seems a bit much.

I guess I would vote to have it encoded to a DVD as mpeg2 just like a real DVD. The reason i would find this helpfull is to look at it in comparison to say Tape or Anniversary Party or the soon to be released (PD150) Tadpole DVD. And to decide if i can pull off a DVD like those.

Jeff Donald · January 14th, 2003, 10:57 AM

The comparisons wouldn't be applicable. You'd be comparing Chris Hurd's NLE codec, MPEG 2 software or hardware encoder, etc. It would only be useful if you have the exact same set-up. If it's a native DV file you can bring it into your NLE and use your software to create your own DVD.

Jeff

Chris Hurd · January 14th, 2003, 12:04 PM

See how complicated this becomes so quickly? I wouldn't consider shooting a public event for this test... it would have to be a quiet, private environment with no time constraints other than the sunlight. Instead of offering the results on DVD, perhaps a DV cassette would be better, but a bigger hassle in the long run.

Aaron Koolen · January 14th, 2003, 01:36 PM

Other possible examples

Light skin
Dark Skin
Test for colour rendition accuracy
On board audio test at different levels (So we can hear noise etc)

I think it would be a great Idea Chris.

Jed Williamson · January 14th, 2003, 02:34 PM

Complicated it is indeed :)

I guess this is something that Canon, Sony, etc. should offer in the first place, like a test driving a vehicle or a demo of software, Or those japanese restaurants at the mall that attack you with free samples!

Let me know when & where to send money for the finsished product.

Cheers,

Jed

Jeff Donald · January 14th, 2003, 03:59 PM

Well, mini Dv cassette would be the best way, but talk about hassle. If it were easy, everybody would do it.

Jeff

Don Palomaki · January 14th, 2003, 06:44 PM

Of course, static and dynamic image files can tell something about the quality of the picture a camcorder can produce, but not much about the ergonomics or abitlity to adapt to vardous shooters and shooting situations. Keep in mind that 90+% of the end product quality is the artistic talent of the shooter, sound people, and the editors, not the equipment.

And using camera defaut settings (on an adjustable camcorder) may not be a good representation of what the camera can do in skilled hands - just an indication of the taste of the factory worker who did the initial setup.

As to getting cinsistent moving targets to test motion artifacts and encoders, how about an electric train set?

When all is said and done, probably not a valid way to do a shoot-off - too many other variables. But some folks may buy the DVD any way.

Zac Stein · January 14th, 2003, 07:08 PM

wow this thread went wild.

When i first saw the topic pop up i actually got excited, i thought peoples 'work' was going to be sent out. Now that would be cool, leave the critical tests to people going to a store and actually using a camera, lets get some looks at peoples movies and reels. Good way for people to get exposure and so on, and fun. The people who want their movies done can evenpay a small fee to have it put on there.

Zac

Bill Hardy · January 15th, 2003, 08:20 AM

Maybe instead of a DVD you could make one master DV tape with footage of all cams. The user could capture it onto his computer and manipulate the pure DV any way he likes.

Jed Williamson · January 15th, 2003, 03:31 PM

From the comments to this thread it seems that there are 3 audiences for such a project:

1. Newbies. Looking for example footage to best decide which camera to buy for their 1st camera.

2. Technophiles: The prosumers that have a 3 chipper already and just want to compare cameras technical aspects. Maybe for the purpose of upgrading or switching.

3. Indy film enthusiats: Who would like a vehicle for distributing their shorts/films to like minded souls with a possibility for constructive criticism and/or praise.

With such a varied audience it complicates matters as far as a finished product.

group 1 needs a format like dvd because they can't playback dv tapes

group 2 needs a format that keeps the footage "pure" like native dv or a mini dv tape.

group 3 needs a format like dvd so as to allow anybody to watch it and fit enough film on it.

So group 1 & 3 can have DVD's
Group 2 can have DV cassettes.

I fall into catogory 1 as is the reason i opened the thread. I just want to see how the GL2 looks on my TV. (I posted an ad in the private classified forum too)

January 13th, 2003, 11:05 PM	#1
Jed Williamson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 175	The Dvinfo.net Dvd Since I have no access to renting/borrowing high end camcorders I tried to come up with a possible solution for me and lots of others who don't have such access to try out models before plunking down a coupla of grand. THE DVINFO.NET DVD 20-30 minutes or so of footage from the different camcorders Different scenes/lighting all sorts of things but at least a way to visually compare. Maybe it could be part of a package for a membership club or something. like $25 for 2 dvd-r's of footage and a year membership(newsletter/dvd etc) Any volunteers for GL2 footage? Any volunteers to put it together? I can volunteer $25-50 :)

January 13th, 2003, 11:55 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Believe it or not, I've actually been mulling this idea over for several weeks now. With my contacts in Austin, I can gather an XL1S, GL2, PD150, DV300 and DVX100 and have them in the same time and place for comparison. The only real question is the format of the tests... I'm open to suggestions. The only way I can see this being viable is to have all cameras together under the exact same conditions pointed at the same thing, which is why I'd prefer to do it in Austin at one time. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 14th, 2003, 12:04 PM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	See how complicated this becomes so quickly? I wouldn't consider shooting a public event for this test... it would have to be a quiet, private environment with no time constraints other than the sunlight. Instead of offering the results on DVD, perhaps a DV cassette would be better, but a bigger hassle in the long run. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 14th, 2003, 05:47 AM	#3
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Bowl of fruit. Doll Resolution target Typicaly Studio 3400K lighting Default camcorder settings Light metered scene Good light & moderately poor light Sample of shooting modes (e.g., movie and frame mode) But with MPEG, the authoring and compression software can have an effect, so native DV files might be the better format on the DVD.

January 14th, 2003, 06:32 AM	#4
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Yeah would be kind of cool to also do a full on set of split screens with all the cameras going at once, but again i would prefer moving targets as well, so we can once and for all end the "my xl1s in frame mode looks jerky when panning" discussions. zac

January 14th, 2003, 07:09 AM	#5
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I think you would need to shoot outdoor scenes as well. But you would have to roll them all at the same time. I've seen too many outdoor comparisons under different lighting conditions. In those cases, a good comparison could not be made (even though the origininators would attempt to). I agree with Don, native DV will be best. but even then we'll be looking at NLE codecs, which are subject to debate by some. Jeff

January 14th, 2003, 10:40 AM	#6
Jed Williamson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 175	How cool to have some interest in this!!! Austin sounds like a great place to shoot some comparison footage. I just looked at the event calendar for Austin. Maybe you could use the Inaugural Parade as an event Jan 21st. (maybe too soon) or Mardi Gras end of Feb. If this is put on a DVD as DV footage would that be an avi file? Either way i belive you could fit only 20 mins per disc that way. So 1 disc per camera seems a bit much. I guess I would vote to have it encoded to a DVD as mpeg2 just like a real DVD. The reason i would find this helpfull is to look at it in comparison to say Tape or Anniversary Party or the soon to be released (PD150) Tadpole DVD. And to decide if i can pull off a DVD like those.

January 14th, 2003, 10:57 AM	#7
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	The comparisons wouldn't be applicable. You'd be comparing Chris Hurd's NLE codec, MPEG 2 software or hardware encoder, etc. It would only be useful if you have the exact same set-up. If it's a native DV file you can bring it into your NLE and use your software to create your own DVD. Jeff

January 14th, 2003, 01:36 PM	#9
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Other possible examples Light skin Dark Skin Test for colour rendition accuracy On board audio test at different levels (So we can hear noise etc) I think it would be a great Idea Chris.

January 14th, 2003, 02:34 PM	#10
Jed Williamson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 175	Complicated it is indeed :) I guess this is something that Canon, Sony, etc. should offer in the first place, like a test driving a vehicle or a demo of software, Or those japanese restaurants at the mall that attack you with free samples! Let me know when & where to send money for the finsished product. Cheers, Jed

January 14th, 2003, 03:59 PM	#11
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Well, mini Dv cassette would be the best way, but talk about hassle. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Jeff

January 14th, 2003, 06:44 PM	#12
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Of course, static and dynamic image files can tell something about the quality of the picture a camcorder can produce, but not much about the ergonomics or abitlity to adapt to vardous shooters and shooting situations. Keep in mind that 90+% of the end product quality is the artistic talent of the shooter, sound people, and the editors, not the equipment. And using camera defaut settings (on an adjustable camcorder) may not be a good representation of what the camera can do in skilled hands - just an indication of the taste of the factory worker who did the initial setup. As to getting cinsistent moving targets to test motion artifacts and encoders, how about an electric train set? When all is said and done, probably not a valid way to do a shoot-off - too many other variables. But some folks may buy the DVD any way.

January 14th, 2003, 07:08 PM	#13
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	wow this thread went wild. When i first saw the topic pop up i actually got excited, i thought peoples 'work' was going to be sent out. Now that would be cool, leave the critical tests to people going to a store and actually using a camera, lets get some looks at peoples movies and reels. Good way for people to get exposure and so on, and fun. The people who want their movies done can evenpay a small fee to have it put on there. Zac

January 15th, 2003, 08:20 AM	#14
Bill Hardy Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 205	Maybe instead of a DVD you could make one master DV tape with footage of all cams. The user could capture it onto his computer and manipulate the pure DV any way he likes.

January 15th, 2003, 03:31 PM	#15
Jed Williamson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 175	From the comments to this thread it seems that there are 3 audiences for such a project: 1. Newbies. Looking for example footage to best decide which camera to buy for their 1st camera. 2. Technophiles: The prosumers that have a 3 chipper already and just want to compare cameras technical aspects. Maybe for the purpose of upgrading or switching. 3. Indy film enthusiats: Who would like a vehicle for distributing their shorts/films to like minded souls with a possibility for constructive criticism and/or praise. With such a varied audience it complicates matters as far as a finished product. group 1 needs a format like dvd because they can't playback dv tapes group 2 needs a format that keeps the footage "pure" like native dv or a mini dv tape. group 3 needs a format like dvd so as to allow anybody to watch it and fit enough film on it. So group 1 & 3 can have DVD's Group 2 can have DV cassettes. I fall into catogory 1 as is the reason i opened the thread. I just want to see how the GL2 looks on my TV. (I posted an ad in the private classified forum too)