GL / XM assorted posts, 2003

Marco Leavitt · July 21st, 2003, 01:19 PM

Are there any advantages to shooting in black and white on the GL1, GL2? I've read repeatedly on these boards that it's best to shoot in color and convert in post, because it gives you more control. That makes sense, but I wonder if there might still be an advantage to doing it in camera. After all, you're requiring the camera to record less information. Wouldn't it lose less when it got compressed to DV? I also wonder how the camera converts from three colors to one -- does each chip continue to read each hue, and the image gets converted to black and white when all three images get combined, or does each chip in effect get converted to monochromatic? If so, it seems like you would pick up some low light capability. Also, if I was able to light the scene well enough, I wouldn't have to do any rendering, which saves a generation of loss. Any thoughts?

Robert Knecht Schmidt · July 21st, 2003, 02:37 PM

"After all, you're requiring the camera to record less information. Wouldn't it lose less when it got compressed to DV?"

Nope--the DV format spec stores pixel data as DCT-encoded 8 by 8 macroblocks of Y Cr Cb channels. When you record in black and white, you're just nulling the Cr and Cb channels, but those null values are still recorded to tape. There's no getting rid of them.

"...does each chip continue to read each hue, and the image gets converted to black and white when all three images get combined, or does each chip in effect get converted to monochromatic?"

In a 3-CCD camera, each chip is monochromatic to begin with, by way of a red, green, or blue filter. The color reduction happens in the signal processing phase--the camera just drops the chrominance data, something you can do equally effectively in Premiere, Vegas, Storm Edit, FCP, Avid, or whatever post platform you prefer.

"I wouldn't have to do any rendering, which saves a generation of loss."

While this is true, I think you'll be very hard pressed to notice a quality difference between a black and white image with the chrominance stripped in camera and one that was rendered out in post. You can do some taste tests with your friends--let's hope you have a lot of friends, to get a wide sampling for statistical purposes--but I bet you'll conclude nobody will notice the difference.

Marco Leavitt · July 21st, 2003, 02:46 PM

Perfect. Thanks.

Jeff Jordan · July 24th, 2003, 09:26 PM

Hi folks,

Just unboxed my GL2, and running in auto mode with no manual mods, it looked terrible! I was shooting with indoor lighting at night, with only the 3 watt VL-3 light on the unit, and I understand that noise is inevitable, but I think my old Canon A1 Hi-8 on full auto looks much, much better. I must be doing something wrong.

Is there a primer somewhere out here on the site that provides assistance with how to handle shooting situations when you are not in ideal lighting conditions with the GL2? How to reduce noise and get accurate color?

Thanks very much.

Alex Knappenberger · July 24th, 2003, 09:32 PM

You can't expect the camera to do amazingly well indoors at night, unless you have plenty of light. How many lights/bulbs/watts do you have where your shooting? DV cameras generally don't do good in "low light" as older cameras do, since the CCD's in new DV cameras are much smaller, among other things.

Anyway, put the camera into manual mode, and take the shutter speed down to 1/30 or maybe even 1/15, and adjust the exposure yourself. Most likely the camera will be adding gain to brighten up the image, and to reduce noise, don't go over +6dB/+9dB gain....

When you shoot some video with your GL2 in daylight, you'll be amazed. :D

Good luck.

Ken Tanaka · July 24th, 2003, 10:20 PM

Jeff,
Alex is right. The GL2's program modes can be handy. But to get a better feel for the camera, particularly if you're unfamiliar with iris, shutter speed and gain relationships, set it to "M" mode (full manual) and begin experimenting in moderate light conditions.

We have many articles on the content part part of DVInfo but, alas, we do not have a primer for the camera. It's a good idea, though!

Bud Kuenzli · July 26th, 2003, 08:25 AM

I would suggest that Barry's recent post (now locked) touting $2299 as a good price is about $300 more than one needs to pay for a GL2 at this time. I just received my second GL2 from an online dealer with full Canon US Warranty for $1975. In the hopes of actually generating some discussion on the topic of GL2 pricing without having this thread locked up immediately by Chris Hurd, I won't mention the web site that sold me the GL2, but this is the second GL2 I have purchased from them (several months apart) and in both instances I was under no pressure to buy additional items and had no problems. That's a savings of 13% over the figure quoted above and it's like getting a free WD58 wide angle and a couple of filters and a few boxes of tapes thrown in for free.
Out of interest and fairness to our sponsors here I did drop them a line to invite them to match that price but they told me the price could not be from a reputable dealer and it had to be a grey market camera without a warranty, but that was not the case.
I respect Chris' decision to not advertise other web sites (hence you will notice my recent posts on this subject try to show some restraint) but from my experience it is clear there are much better prices out there from good dealers.
I respectfully challenge Chris' statement that "You won't find a better deal anywhere else." While that may be true of our sponsors in terms of "you won't find a better dealer for service after the sales", it certainly is not the case in terms of "better price for a US Warrantied GL2" with no high pressure tactics, which I think many people will accept as the definition of "best deal".
The first question becomes "how much are you willing to pay for service after the sale?
The second question relates to pricing and it really a couple of related questions. Does anyone know the wholesale pricing structure of the GL2? How cheaply can a large etailer actually buy a US Warranty GL2 for? What are the various tiers of pricing? Is there, for instance, a Wholesale price that some dealers like our sponsors might pay, and a "Jobber" price that larger etailers might pay?

Devin Doyle · July 26th, 2003, 01:52 PM

Say I'm going to use a filter in front of my lens like a polarizer or a diffusion filter. Should I white balance before I put the filter on, or balance thru the filter? I'd think itd be balance before putting the filter on, but I'm not sure. Just something I've been pondering. Thanks for your help!

Ken Tanaka · July 27th, 2003, 11:57 AM

Devin,
Good question. In the case of a polarizing filter, you would only be using it outdoors in sunlight. So simply using the daylight preset would take care of that problem.

In the case of filters that do not alter color balance you can wb with them on. Be cognizant of whether or not you are using "warm" diffusers, that purposely lower color temperature, or neutral diffusers. If you wb with warms attached you will negate the effect you are presumably trying to achieve.

Devin Doyle · July 27th, 2003, 12:15 PM

Ken, great advice. I hope others can benefit from this small, but informative post! Thanks!

Erwin Kolman · July 27th, 2003, 02:20 PM

Hello, can anyone tell me if i can use a sennheisser me 66 on a xm2 (canon) and do the audio ajustments with the camcorder??
I meen the audio rec level L/R (in manuelmode)
Do i use a xlr to plug (1/8 inch) and put it in the mic terminalon the rightside off the camcorder.
Has the senneisser a built-in power supple or can i use the dc5v above the mic terminal????

Have anyone a picture from a mic on a xm2?

Don Palomaki · July 27th, 2003, 06:35 PM

You can connect a ME66/K6 combo to the GL2/XM2. You will need a XLR to miniphone adapter, and you connect it to the mic jack. Simple (transformerless) adapters work OK for short leads. Long leads can pickup noise if connected in an unbalanced system.

The 5-vDC on the Canon cannot power a mic that needs phantom power. It can [ower some specific Canon brand camcorder mics.

The K6 module for the ME66 can be powered by an internal battery.

Richard R Rivera · July 29th, 2003, 10:33 AM

I just bought my GL2 a few months ago and im in college for TV productions. In tv class I have learned how to white balance cameras on a vector scope and sync generaters for each camera. MY Qustion is how do you manauly white balance the GL2, since im still learning this camera? Its a wonderful product that canon has come out with. I like its crisp sound and picture it produces. Im going to use it to shoot a movie in frame mode to give it a real feel for the audiance. So wish me luck and any good advise is welcome to my ears. thanx and have a great day

Ken Tanaka · July 29th, 2003, 11:29 AM

Hello Richard,
See page 80 of the GL2's U.S. manual. It's nicely described there.

Christian Bovine · July 30th, 2003, 11:03 AM

Does anyone have any advice on how to get the best quality picture on a cloudy, over-cast, day? With no other lighting available that is. Or any tips on how to angle the camera so your picture is not drowning in the glow of white clouds?

Thanks

July 21st, 2003, 01:19 PM	#496
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Any advantages to shooting in black and white? Are there any advantages to shooting in black and white on the GL1, GL2? I've read repeatedly on these boards that it's best to shoot in color and convert in post, because it gives you more control. That makes sense, but I wonder if there might still be an advantage to doing it in camera. After all, you're requiring the camera to record less information. Wouldn't it lose less when it got compressed to DV? I also wonder how the camera converts from three colors to one -- does each chip continue to read each hue, and the image gets converted to black and white when all three images get combined, or does each chip in effect get converted to monochromatic? If so, it seems like you would pick up some low light capability. Also, if I was able to light the scene well enough, I wouldn't have to do any rendering, which saves a generation of loss. Any thoughts?

July 21st, 2003, 02:37 PM	#497
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	"After all, you're requiring the camera to record less information. Wouldn't it lose less when it got compressed to DV?" Nope--the DV format spec stores pixel data as DCT-encoded 8 by 8 macroblocks of Y Cr Cb channels. When you record in black and white, you're just nulling the Cr and Cb channels, but those null values are still recorded to tape. There's no getting rid of them. "...does each chip continue to read each hue, and the image gets converted to black and white when all three images get combined, or does each chip in effect get converted to monochromatic?" In a 3-CCD camera, each chip is monochromatic to begin with, by way of a red, green, or blue filter. The color reduction happens in the signal processing phase--the camera just drops the chrominance data, something you can do equally effectively in Premiere, Vegas, Storm Edit, FCP, Avid, or whatever post platform you prefer. "I wouldn't have to do any rendering, which saves a generation of loss." While this is true, I think you'll be very hard pressed to notice a quality difference between a black and white image with the chrominance stripped in camera and one that was rendered out in post. You can do some taste tests with your friends--let's hope you have a lot of friends, to get a wide sampling for statistical purposes--but I bet you'll conclude nobody will notice the difference. __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 24th, 2003, 09:26 PM	#499
Jeff Jordan New Boot Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 18	Primer on GL2 usage? Hi folks, Just unboxed my GL2, and running in auto mode with no manual mods, it looked terrible! I was shooting with indoor lighting at night, with only the 3 watt VL-3 light on the unit, and I understand that noise is inevitable, but I think my old Canon A1 Hi-8 on full auto looks much, much better. I must be doing something wrong. Is there a primer somewhere out here on the site that provides assistance with how to handle shooting situations when you are not in ideal lighting conditions with the GL2? How to reduce noise and get accurate color? Thanks very much. __________________ 20X optical using "L" glass is a beautiful thing.

July 24th, 2003, 10:20 PM	#501
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Jeff, Alex is right. The GL2's program modes can be handy. But to get a better feel for the camera, particularly if you're unfamiliar with iris, shutter speed and gain relationships, set it to "M" mode (full manual) and begin experimenting in moderate light conditions. We have many articles on the content part part of DVInfo but, alas, we do not have a primer for the camera. It's a good idea, though! __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

July 26th, 2003, 08:25 AM	#502
Bud Kuenzli Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 197	service after the sale and pricing structure of GL2 I would suggest that Barry's recent post (now locked) touting $2299 as a good price is about $300 more than one needs to pay for a GL2 at this time. I just received my second GL2 from an online dealer with full Canon US Warranty for $1975. In the hopes of actually generating some discussion on the topic of GL2 pricing without having this thread locked up immediately by Chris Hurd, I won't mention the web site that sold me the GL2, but this is the second GL2 I have purchased from them (several months apart) and in both instances I was under no pressure to buy additional items and had no problems. That's a savings of 13% over the figure quoted above and it's like getting a free WD58 wide angle and a couple of filters and a few boxes of tapes thrown in for free. Out of interest and fairness to our sponsors here I did drop them a line to invite them to match that price but they told me the price could not be from a reputable dealer and it had to be a grey market camera without a warranty, but that was not the case. I respect Chris' decision to not advertise other web sites (hence you will notice my recent posts on this subject try to show some restraint) but from my experience it is clear there are much better prices out there from good dealers. I respectfully challenge Chris' statement that "You won't find a better deal anywhere else." While that may be true of our sponsors in terms of "you won't find a better dealer for service after the sales", it certainly is not the case in terms of "better price for a US Warrantied GL2" with no high pressure tactics, which I think many people will accept as the definition of "best deal". The first question becomes "how much are you willing to pay for service after the sale? The second question relates to pricing and it really a couple of related questions. Does anyone know the wholesale pricing structure of the GL2? How cheaply can a large etailer actually buy a US Warranty GL2 for? What are the various tiers of pricing? Is there, for instance, a Wholesale price that some dealers like our sponsors might pay, and a "Jobber" price that larger etailers might pay? __________________ on the Internet, when you get where you're going you still don't know where you are

July 21st, 2003, 02:46 PM	#498
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Perfect. Thanks.

July 24th, 2003, 09:32 PM	#500
Alex Knappenberger High School Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canton, Ohio, USA Posts: 609	You can't expect the camera to do amazingly well indoors at night, unless you have plenty of light. How many lights/bulbs/watts do you have where your shooting? DV cameras generally don't do good in "low light" as older cameras do, since the CCD's in new DV cameras are much smaller, among other things. Anyway, put the camera into manual mode, and take the shutter speed down to 1/30 or maybe even 1/15, and adjust the exposure yourself. Most likely the camera will be adding gain to brighten up the image, and to reduce noise, don't go over +6dB/+9dB gain.... When you shoot some video with your GL2 in daylight, you'll be amazed. :D Good luck.

July 26th, 2003, 01:52 PM	#503
Devin Doyle Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 188	white balance thru filters Say I'm going to use a filter in front of my lens like a polarizer or a diffusion filter. Should I white balance before I put the filter on, or balance thru the filter? I'd think itd be balance before putting the filter on, but I'm not sure. Just something I've been pondering. Thanks for your help! __________________ http://devin.par-t-com.net

July 27th, 2003, 11:57 AM	#504
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Devin, Good question. In the case of a polarizing filter, you would only be using it outdoors in sunlight. So simply using the daylight preset would take care of that problem. In the case of filters that do not alter color balance you can wb with them on. Be cognizant of whether or not you are using "warm" diffusers, that purposely lower color temperature, or neutral diffusers. If you wb with warms attached you will negate the effect you are presumably trying to achieve. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

July 27th, 2003, 12:15 PM	#505
Devin Doyle Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 188	Ken, great advice. I hope others can benefit from this small, but informative post! Thanks! __________________ http://devin.par-t-com.net

July 27th, 2003, 02:20 PM	#506
Erwin Kolman New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vriezenveen Holland Posts: 14	Mic question Hello, can anyone tell me if i can use a sennheisser me 66 on a xm2 (canon) and do the audio ajustments with the camcorder?? I meen the audio rec level L/R (in manuelmode) Do i use a xlr to plug (1/8 inch) and put it in the mic terminalon the rightside off the camcorder. Has the senneisser a built-in power supple or can i use the dc5v above the mic terminal???? Have anyone a picture from a mic on a xm2? __________________ Erwin

July 27th, 2003, 06:35 PM	#507
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,489	You can connect a ME66/K6 combo to the GL2/XM2. You will need a XLR to miniphone adapter, and you connect it to the mic jack. Simple (transformerless) adapters work OK for short leads. Long leads can pickup noise if connected in an unbalanced system. The 5-vDC on the Canon cannot power a mic that needs phantom power. It can [ower some specific Canon brand camcorder mics. The K6 module for the ME66 can be powered by an internal battery. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

July 29th, 2003, 10:33 AM	#508
Richard R Rivera New Boot Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 22	how to manaul white balance GL2 I just bought my GL2 a few months ago and im in college for TV productions. In tv class I have learned how to white balance cameras on a vector scope and sync generaters for each camera. MY Qustion is how do you manauly white balance the GL2, since im still learning this camera? Its a wonderful product that canon has come out with. I like its crisp sound and picture it produces. Im going to use it to shoot a movie in frame mode to give it a real feel for the audiance. So wish me luck and any good advise is welcome to my ears. thanx and have a great day __________________ If you dont use it , you'll just loose it!

July 29th, 2003, 11:29 AM	#509
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Hello Richard, See page 80 of the GL2's U.S. manual. It's nicely described there. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

July 30th, 2003, 11:03 AM	#510
Christian Bovine New Boot Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Philadelphia, Pa Posts: 19	Cloudy Day Shoot Does anyone have any advice on how to get the best quality picture on a cloudy, over-cast, day? With no other lighting available that is. Or any tips on how to angle the camera so your picture is not drowning in the glow of white clouds? Thanks __________________ Cb - philly