sound is 51% of any film... at DVinfo.net

bokkus37 · December 5th, 2002, 03:06 AM

so i hear the gl-2, even with that m-300 xlr adapter, doesn't have balanced audio. i'm aiming to buy a great shotgun for my work, but i'd like some balanced audio. are there any adapters that offer balanced audio for use with xlr cables.

and oh yeah, what's the difference between balanced and unbalanced again?

Rob Lohman · December 5th, 2002, 12:42 PM

Balanced uses an external power source to make sure your audio
has the cleanest signal possible. There is an XLR adapter available
for the GL2.

Good luck!

Don Donatello · December 5th, 2002, 05:36 PM

IMO you canNOT hear the difference between using a $2500 mic on a balanced or unbalanced input ( using XLR box) ...

the XLR inputs allow you to USE professional mic's on these camera's ... as long as the cable from the XLR box to mic input is SHORT you will not have "balance" problems.

Ken Tanaka · December 5th, 2002, 06:19 PM

"bokkus37",

"Balanced" audio is an industry standard wiring scheme involving 3 conductors. Audio travels down two of the conductors at simultaneously but 180 degrees out of phase with each other. The objective is to reduce interference by enabling stray signals to electronically cancel each other out.

Balanced audio connections can also facilitate remote ('phantom") power to the microphone but it is not inherent in the definition. Many mics, in fact, can either use phantom power or power from and onboard battery.

Aren't you the same fellow that was attending a trade school in Florida and planning to get a camera last February? If so, did you get side-tracked?

Mark Austin · December 7th, 2002, 10:32 AM

The main purpose of balancing a mic feed is to reduce (EMR/RF/hum) noise. The audio signal is the same balanced or not so there is NO difference in the sound (except (*) below), only the induced noise. If you have a cable going from a condenser (powered) shotgun mic on the MA300 to the XLR input that's 18" or less it's probably a mute point, you would almost never know it wasn't balanced. The exception is if you are working in an area with extreme electromagnetic or RF radiation, or an area like a transformer room with a high current 60 cycle hum, in fact in these environments it would probably be more harmful to you or your camera than your audio. Balancing was designed for people who need LONG cable runs with no noise, studios linking equipment & rooms; or live sound where the mix position is several hundred feet from the mic (also cutting the line resistance almost in half - ohms law) where a dynamic mic would loose it's "punch" (*). If you are experiencing noise from the MA300 and a mic I'd be willing to bet it's not because it's unbalanced. For what it's worth, I have all of the outboard equipment in my studio wired unbalanced (some is vintage unbalanced gear) I have at least 48 runs of cable at 30+ feet piled up on power cables, audio lines and passing near power amps with no problems at all. One other point is there is a way that you can wire balanced to unbalanced to actually pick up RF and feed it to ground, acomplishing just about the same effect, so even if you used your shotgun on a boom pole with a 30 foot cable it would be quiet. I'd be willing to bet the MA300 is as such. If I can remember the pinouts I'll post them later. On my GL2 I use an Audio Technica AT835b on an MA300 with a 12" cable and it's way quieter than the on camera mic, "it rocks dude"!
my 2 cents.
Mark

Brad Higerd · January 10th, 2003, 02:16 PM

How do the Audio Technica AT835b and the Sennheiser ME 66K6 compare (aside from cost)? Next week I will have my first MiniDV camcorder (GL2), and I am looking to mount a very good shotgun (mic) on top.

I wold appreciate some good advise on quiet and quick mounting options as well as some mic comparisons.

Thanks in advance.

Mark Austin · January 10th, 2003, 05:44 PM

My only beef with the 835b is that it's huge, it's about 13" long. It also doesn't fit the MA300 without a foam insert. I haven't been able to compare the sound quality head to head but in general Sennheiser mics are superior to the Audio Technica mics. I got such a great deal on mine I'll live with its' shortcomings though. I only paid $20 for it at a Mars Music store closing, and it was brand new. You may also want to scan some of the XL-1 audio forums for impressions of the Sennheiser and other shotgun mics.
Mark

Doug Quance · January 11th, 2003, 11:29 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by bokkus37 : so i hear the gl-2, even with that m-300 xlr adapter, doesn't have balanced audio. i'm aiming to buy a great shotgun for my work, but i'd like some balanced audio. are there any adapters that offer balanced audio for use with xlr cables.

and oh yeah, what's the difference between balanced and unbalanced again? -->>>

I posted this in another thread, but you might find it useful:

"In a balanced system, the audio is split into two signals. One of the signals is inverted... meaning that each signal is 180 degrees out of phase... meaning that when one signal goes up in amplitude, the other is going down.

Any noise that the mic cable picks up will be the same across both conductors. A positive spike on one conductor will also have a positive spike on the other.

When the two signals are remixed (in the camera, or mixer, or recorder) the inverted signal is brought back into phase. The noise spikes, however, are now out of phase... and consequently cancel each other out when the two signals are blended back together. It's a fairly simple, yet very effective concept."

I agree with Mark that having balanced lines aren't the most critical thing in the world, but I prefer them for the mic level signals... once they have been amplified to line level, the signal to noise ratio is improved and unbalanced signals seem to work just fine for most processing.

January 17th, 2003, 12:07 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Brad Higerd : How do the Audio Technica AT835b and the Sennheiser ME 66K6 compare (aside from cost)? Next week I will have my first MiniDV camcorder (GL2), and I am looking to mount a very good shotgun (mic) on top. -->>>

Gack. What a quoting system. Blech.

Anyway, the LA Final Cut Pro User Group has a review of "low-cost" shotgun microphones at http://www.lafcpug.org/review_shotgun_mic.html

Ken Tanaka · January 17th, 2003, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Gack. What a quoting system. Blech.

I agree. <g>

Welcome to the DVInfo Community, Brad! Thanks very much for the LAFCUG mic link. Very handy.

Leonard Leguizamo · January 17th, 2003, 05:39 PM

The Azden SGM-1x (11.8"x.83) is about $150 from www.bhphoto.com and has XLR output connections. Would this be a better choice then the Canon DM-50 for the same price?

I was also looking at the Azden SGM-X ($129, 8.34"x.83") which has an 3.5mm output to your DV camera. This would bypass the need to used the XLR adapter and keep your camera from looking like a christmas tree.

Would do you all think?

Thanks,

Tom Voigt · January 17th, 2003, 06:43 PM

I have never used any other mic, so I can't do a comparison, but I am amazed at the quality the DM-50 provides.

I have been shooting low-budget opera's so it is an excellent mic for music and voice.

It has a three position switch, shotgun mono, narrow stereo, and wide stereo. I use it in the narrow stereo position. It does a good job of rejecting most, but not all, of the squeaking chairs, coughing, etc going on around me, but boy can you hear that creaking plywood stage!!

Brad Higerd · January 18th, 2003, 11:00 AM

Many of you already know this to be true, but I would like to add this for the record. The Sennheiser ME 66K6 is an awesome camcorder mounted shotgun. I'm finding that it doesn't reject all the ambient noises created by air cleaners, refrigerators..., but it does an awesome job of picking up the voices of people in front of the camera.

Thanks to you all for helping me make this choice.

December 5th, 2002, 03:06 AM	#1
bokkus37 New Boot Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 20	sound is 51% of any film... so i hear the gl-2, even with that m-300 xlr adapter, doesn't have balanced audio. i'm aiming to buy a great shotgun for my work, but i'd like some balanced audio. are there any adapters that offer balanced audio for use with xlr cables. and oh yeah, what's the difference between balanced and unbalanced again?

December 5th, 2002, 12:42 PM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Balanced uses an external power source to make sure your audio has the cleanest signal possible. There is an XLR adapter available for the GL2. Good luck! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 5th, 2002, 06:19 PM	#4
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	"bokkus37", "Balanced" audio is an industry standard wiring scheme involving 3 conductors. Audio travels down two of the conductors at simultaneously but 180 degrees out of phase with each other. The objective is to reduce interference by enabling stray signals to electronically cancel each other out. Balanced audio connections can also facilitate remote ('phantom") power to the microphone but it is not inherent in the definition. Many mics, in fact, can either use phantom power or power from and onboard battery. Aren't you the same fellow that was attending a trade school in Florida and planning to get a camera last February? If so, did you get side-tracked? __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

December 7th, 2002, 10:32 AM	#5
Mark Austin Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 188	Balancing act... The main purpose of balancing a mic feed is to reduce (EMR/RF/hum) noise. The audio signal is the same balanced or not so there is NO difference in the sound (except () below), only the induced noise. If you have a cable going from a condenser (powered) shotgun mic on the MA300 to the XLR input that's 18" or less it's probably a mute point, you would almost never know it wasn't balanced. The exception is if you are working in an area with extreme electromagnetic or RF radiation, or an area like a transformer room with a high current 60 cycle hum, in fact in these environments it would probably be more harmful to you or your camera than your audio. Balancing was designed for people who need LONG cable runs with no noise, studios linking equipment & rooms; or live sound where the mix position is several hundred feet from the mic (also cutting the line resistance almost in half - ohms law) where a dynamic mic would loose it's "punch" (). If you are experiencing noise from the MA300 and a mic I'd be willing to bet it's not because it's unbalanced. For what it's worth, I have all of the outboard equipment in my studio wired unbalanced (some is vintage unbalanced gear) I have at least 48 runs of cable at 30+ feet piled up on power cables, audio lines and passing near power amps with no problems at all. One other point is there is a way that you can wire balanced to unbalanced to actually pick up RF and feed it to ground, acomplishing just about the same effect, so even if you used your shotgun on a boom pole with a 30 foot cable it would be quiet. I'd be willing to bet the MA300 is as such. If I can remember the pinouts I'll post them later. On my GL2 I use an Audio Technica AT835b on an MA300 with a 12" cable and it's way quieter than the on camera mic, "it rocks dude"! my 2 cents. Mark __________________ I'm humbled by the greatness that surrounds me.

January 10th, 2003, 05:44 PM	#7
Mark Austin Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 188	835b My only beef with the 835b is that it's huge, it's about 13" long. It also doesn't fit the MA300 without a foam insert. I haven't been able to compare the sound quality head to head but in general Sennheiser mics are superior to the Audio Technica mics. I got such a great deal on mine I'll live with its' shortcomings though. I only paid $20 for it at a Mars Music store closing, and it was brand new. You may also want to scan some of the XL-1 audio forums for impressions of the Sennheiser and other shotgun mics. Mark __________________ I'm humbled by the greatness that surrounds me.

December 5th, 2002, 05:36 PM	#3
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	IMO you canNOT hear the difference between using a $2500 mic on a balanced or unbalanced input ( using XLR box) ... the XLR inputs allow you to USE professional mic's on these camera's ... as long as the cable from the XLR box to mic input is SHORT you will not have "balance" problems.

January 10th, 2003, 02:16 PM	#6
Brad Higerd Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 186	How do the Audio Technica AT835b and the Sennheiser ME 66K6 compare (aside from cost)? Next week I will have my first MiniDV camcorder (GL2), and I am looking to mount a very good shotgun (mic) on top. I wold appreciate some good advise on quiet and quick mounting options as well as some mic comparisons. Thanks in advance.

January 11th, 2003, 11:29 AM	#8
Doug Quance Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 138	Re: sound is 51% of any film... <<<-- Originally posted by bokkus37 : so i hear the gl-2, even with that m-300 xlr adapter, doesn't have balanced audio. i'm aiming to buy a great shotgun for my work, but i'd like some balanced audio. are there any adapters that offer balanced audio for use with xlr cables. and oh yeah, what's the difference between balanced and unbalanced again? -->>> I posted this in another thread, but you might find it useful: "In a balanced system, the audio is split into two signals. One of the signals is inverted... meaning that each signal is 180 degrees out of phase... meaning that when one signal goes up in amplitude, the other is going down. Any noise that the mic cable picks up will be the same across both conductors. A positive spike on one conductor will also have a positive spike on the other. When the two signals are remixed (in the camera, or mixer, or recorder) the inverted signal is brought back into phase. The noise spikes, however, are now out of phase... and consequently cancel each other out when the two signals are blended back together. It's a fairly simple, yet very effective concept." I agree with Mark that having balanced lines aren't the most critical thing in the world, but I prefer them for the mic level signals... once they have been amplified to line level, the signal to noise ratio is improved and unbalanced signals seem to work just fine for most processing. __________________ If you're not the lead dog... the scenery never changes

January 17th, 2003, 12:07 PM	#9
Brad Knowles Posts: n/a	<<<-- Originally posted by Brad Higerd : How do the Audio Technica AT835b and the Sennheiser ME 66K6 compare (aside from cost)? Next week I will have my first MiniDV camcorder (GL2), and I am looking to mount a very good shotgun (mic) on top. -->>> Gack. What a quoting system. Blech. Anyway, the LA Final Cut Pro User Group has a review of "low-cost" shotgun microphones at http://www.lafcpug.org/review_shotgun_mic.html

January 17th, 2003, 05:39 PM	#11
Leonard Leguizamo New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 9	What about the Azden SGM-1x? The Azden SGM-1x (11.8"x.83) is about $150 from www.bhphoto.com and has XLR output connections. Would this be a better choice then the Canon DM-50 for the same price? I was also looking at the Azden SGM-X ($129, 8.34"x.83") which has an 3.5mm output to your DV camera. This would bypass the need to used the XLR adapter and keep your camera from looking like a christmas tree. Would do you all think? Thanks, __________________ Thanks, Leonard Leguizamo Canon GL2 with: WD-58H (wide angle adpt) BP930 batteries Use Fuji DVM60 tapes (SP mode)

January 17th, 2003, 06:43 PM	#12
Tom Voigt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 92	Canon DM-50 I have never used any other mic, so I can't do a comparison, but I am amazed at the quality the DM-50 provides. I have been shooting low-budget opera's so it is an excellent mic for music and voice. It has a three position switch, shotgun mono, narrow stereo, and wide stereo. I use it in the narrow stereo position. It does a good job of rejecting most, but not all, of the squeaking chairs, coughing, etc going on around me, but boy can you hear that creaking plywood stage!!

January 18th, 2003, 11:00 AM	#13
Brad Higerd Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 186	Many of you already know this to be true, but I would like to add this for the record. The Sennheiser ME 66K6 is an awesome camcorder mounted shotgun. I'm finding that it doesn't reject all the ambient noises created by air cleaners, refrigerators..., but it does an awesome job of picking up the voices of people in front of the camera. Thanks to you all for helping me make this choice.