Field Order setting for Frame-Mode

[Tim Agnew]

Can anyone tell me if I shoot footage in Frame Mode on the GL2 if I should render a movie using Frame-based or Field? I know DV is field based and it's generally what I use, but I was not sure of the Frame Mode since I'm knew to this camera. Help appreciated.

[Rob Lohman]

If you shoot in frame mode you should render (or have the project
se to) in progressive or have interlaced set to 'none'!

[Tim Agnew]

Would this be lower field first in Media Studio Pro 7? Under Media Source options I have these choices: Lower Field first, Upper Field first, or Frame Based. Thanks for your help.

[Rob Lohman]

No, lower & upper are interlaced (can also be even and odd). Frame
based is what it says. Frame based. Frame mode = progressive =
frame based.

[Tim Agnew]

Rob- thanks. It appears that Media Studio Pro and others won't allow you to render a movie wth mixed frame/field settings. When I tried, it defaults back to field based. So I guess I just need to know before I shoot all frame shots, that I can indeed render the project in frame mode without it defaulting back to field. I'll try a small sample...thanks again.

[Bob Benkosky]

Alot of people have discussed which is better to shoot in, and after much testing, I have found shooting in normal mode is better. Like someone else said, it's best to shoot the best footage on the location, mess with it later, and see what comes out. If you shoot in frame mode, you are stuck with that progressive look, which is not bad, but it's not as good as 24p looks in post. Alos, peeps have said you are losing resolution in frame mode which becomes apparent after alot of editing.

I have changed sides..... Normal mode for me.... Even though it looks like a soap opera while you are filming, you can be assused, you will have better footage to work with in Vegas 5 or whatever you use. Vegas makes normal mode look awesome after the conversion....really film-like..... Or leave it alone and go for a documentary style.

[Aaron Koolen]

That's one thing that I have NEVER seen explained properly (Of course I might be looking in the wrong places) and that's the combination of camera, project, clip and render settings for the different modes to get interlaced or non interlaced in Vegas. It just confuses me to no end.

Is there a good resource explaining all this? i.e. To take interlaced footage and render final output as progressive. To take frame mode (Which is still interlaced on tape) and edit it so it's viewed as progressive etc. I'm just not sure at what point, the computer is handling the progressive, or interlaced. If I load frame, set project to None on field order, do I have to set the Media properties to anything specific? etc etc.


Aaron

[Bob Benkosky]

Well, shooting in Normal mode I read this.

Open project in either widescreen DV 24p or just plain old dv, depending on whether you're going for 16;9 or not.

Set field order to lower, then set blend fields.

If in 16:9 make sure the aspect ratio thing is clicked. This allows you to see it stretched out instead of squeezed. Try that out.

[Rob Lohman]

Your project and export settings should match your intended output
format. So if you want to work in interlaced (normal) then make
sure the project and export settings reflect this. It doesn't matter
what the footage is in, since Vegas will convert it (but it is better
to begin with what you want to end up with ofcourse).

For progressive it is the same. Make sure your project and export
settings are set to progressive. In the project you can also set
how it should de-interlace if you then place interlaced footage
(also see the "remove interlace flicker" option)

[Alon Levi]

Well, here it goes :

A. I've tested it (also on the Big screen), and Frame mode is higher quality then post deinterlacing. Actully it's a step between true progressive and interlace (the R & B CCDs are resampled, creating a bit softer image then true progressive, but better then software deinterlacing).

B. You should consider the footage as progressive, in order to avoid softerware deinterlacing; but even if you treat it as lower/upper field without deinterlacing - it will show up just fine (althought all FireWire captured matrials are lower fields).

C. There is a theorathical lost of quality (in the vertical plane) of 25% when using Frame mode (compared to 50% loss in post-deinterlace - if you neglact the mathmatical jiggaling, which probably brings it down a bit); BUT, and it's an importent BUT, there is no quality diffrence in the PRECEIVED image quality. or, in other words, it's looks as sharp, even more.

Cb. In some cases (fast pans/dollies and such), the storbbing effect releted to progressive shooting, makes the image a little bit hard to digust. I have the feeling that the GL2 frame mode is a little bit more problematic, in this aspect, then true progessive;
But this problem also exists in 35mm, under certain narrow-angle lenses.

D. Here you might help me out - Although in every aspect, it can be considered progressive footage, for some reason AVID XPRESS PRO 25p mode, makes the audio/video lost sync. have no idea why this happens.

that's about it.
Alon.


<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Koolen : That's one thing that I have NEVER seen explained properly (Of course I might be looking in the wrong places) and that's the combination of camera, project, clip and render settings for the different modes to get interlaced or non interlaced in Vegas. It just confuses me to no end.


Aaron -->>>

[Bob Benkosky]

You aren't taking in to consideration the flexibility of slow-motioning your footage. When it's in progressive mode, slow mo doesn't look good. It's looks like a bunch of pictures blurred together. Obviously you could shoot everything in Frame Mode except the shots you might use in slow-mo, but I'm not sure I would do it that way.

Plus, which software did you use to convert it to 30p? Or did you use 24p...??

Magic Bullet shows close-ups of how good it de-interlaces. It's pretty good.

[Alon Levi]

Well, first I use the XM-2, which is GL-2 pal version; so, i'm going for 25P; second - Magic Bullet has a very good deinterlacer, much better then what AE does by itself (which is field doubling with the possibility for edge enhancment) - still yet, The quality obtained from shooting it in Frame mode is higher (Without even talking about the fact that in-camera frame mode kicks in before the codec does...)



<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Benkosky : You aren't taking in to consideration the flexibility of slow-motioning your footage. When
Plus, which software did you use to convert it to 30p? Or did you use 24p...??

Magic Bullet shows close-ups of how good it de-interlaces. It's pretty good. -->>>

[Dave Ferdinand]

I agree with Alon, in that the tests I made with my GL2, frame mode beats Premiere on de-interlacing.

I don't have MB, so maybe it does a better job, but I think it may be hard to match it.

As to shooting in 30p, only if you're thinking in transferring to film you'll get problems. Slow-mo you can just shoot in 60i for the specific scenes. In PAL land most tv sets are now compatible with PAL 60, which emulates NTSC so I doubt people with multiregion DVD players aren't importing NTSC movies from US/Japan already...

[Bob Benkosky]

Well, I've done a few tests myself and as with PAL, yea, stick with Frame Mode it's closer to the (film-look) than 30p is, but I liked the movement of 24p versus 30p. I believe Magic Bullet de-interlaces better than anything out there, hence the large price tag and I'm sure it's pretty even steven in quality to the Frame Mode. There's been much discussion about it on here.

Some of the experts say shoot in normal mode just so you get a full clean signal to start out with.

I used to use Frame Mode all the time, but I seemed to like normal to 24p better for some wierd reason even though it's harder to judge while filming. However, assume you shoot a movie in FM, and someday someone wants you to put it on film, you're screwed. 30p to 24p looks like you are trying to use a funny strobing effect even when you aren't.

Obviously FM mode makes certain things easier though. No need to de-interlace or anything. Just render to 30p.

In normal mode, if you have MB, you have to import, export, edit, color correct, blah blah blah. If you are in 30p, just edit, color correct, done.

I think once I shoot my movie in normal mode, I'll just render everything to 24p in MB, then if I want a scene in slow-mo, I'll use the full 60i scene. It will be a challenge that's for sure.

[Matt Lean]

Wow, both modes have their ups and downs. So Magic bullet is the closest program to make it look as good as Frame Mode (resolution/quality wise)? Are there any other softwares that are as good as frame mode? If so, are you guys willing to sell me a copy?