GL2 / XM2 Frame mode

Charlie Durand · August 11th, 2004, 02:05 PM

Hey gang,

I've been doing some test shots to compare video shot using frame mode and video shot interlaced.

I only see the difference on my computer. And sometimes it's a negative difference. If I shoot something with a lot of movement frame mode seems to get blurry sometimes.

On the television I can't tell a difference.. unless I'm in frame mode and there's a lot of movement. Kids running, that sort of movement.

So my question is, when would frame mode be a good option for shooting video? I'm not knocking it, just trying to figure out what people use it for and when.

Second, should I see a difference on a regular television? Maybe my television is too old or cheap because I just don't see the difference. I know televisions are interlaced. That's probably why frame mode isn't doing anything.

Thanks!

Charlie

Ken Tanaka · August 11th, 2004, 02:13 PM

"I only see the difference on my computer. And sometimes it's a negative difference. If I shoot something with a lot of movement frame mode seems to get blurry sometimes.

On the television I can't tell a difference.. unless I'm in frame mode and there's a lot of movement. Kids running, that sort of movement."

A television is where you -should- see a difference, as that medium is what video, and particularly "frame mode", is targeted towards. The view on a computer monitor is largely immaterial unless that's your planned primary venue.

"So my question is, when would frame mode be a good option for shooting video? I'm not knocking it, just trying to figure out what people use it for and when."
Use of frame mode (progressive scan) is largely a matter of aesthetic preference for most people. Fast motion will seem jittery because both scan fields are being recorded simultaneously. So there's less visual blurring that interlaced recording introduces.

We have hundreds of threads on frame mode so a Search will keep you entertained for quite a while.

Prech Marton · August 12th, 2004, 01:41 AM

And something more:

you LOSE resolution in frame mode with gl2!

Rob Lohman · August 12th, 2004, 03:11 AM

I couldn't see too much of a difference on my TV either Ken. The
difference is mainly in the motion signatures as you already found
Charlie. At what shutter speed where you shooting? I would not
advise you to go under 1/60th unless it is for that effect. Because
it will strobe more indeed.

Personally I loved the way it looked and how it was a tad softer
due to the resolution loss. But I guess that is personal.

Which mode is best for you depend on what you are trying to do
with it. If you are making a fictional dramatic piece most people
tend to agree that frame mode helps in this regard (gives it a
slightly more filmic look). However if you do home videos for the
family or broadcast stuff then I would stick with interlaced.

David Crompton · August 29th, 2004, 08:23 PM

I have done a series of portraits shot in frame mode that will now be exhibited on LCD screens. In looking at the footage on these screens for the first time I am seeing that the edges are jagged and over all I am not happy with the look. Is there any way of dealing with this footage so these interlace issues look better or is the only choice (to get a decent picture) to view them on conventional TV monitors...

Help, please!

Miguel Lombana · August 29th, 2004, 08:29 PM

David what resolution are the LCD screens in question set at?

I edit with 2 LCD and preview / playback on 1 LCD TV of which all are fairly small (17" and 15") however I don't see what you're seeing. I'm wondering if this is a resolution or input issue?

David Crompton · August 29th, 2004, 09:05 PM

I am using an LG Flatron RU-20LA61 LCD TV. It's 20".

I am going through the S-Video input so I don't know that a resolution can be set, can it? I assumed it would be automatic, but maybe not?

David Kelly · August 30th, 2004, 12:00 AM

Think your problem could be the limited resolution of the LCD you have used. From what I gather it only has a resoltion of 640 x 480. This may be ok if your images are that otherwise the electronics can generate steps that are not there due to sizing changes. Can only suggest you try it on another better definition monitor.

Barry Goyette · August 31st, 2004, 01:34 PM

David...

LCD's generally produce a sharper looking image than standard crt televisions...so it is possible that this is what you are seeing...you may be able to turn the sharpness down on the monitor, or your next step would be to decrease the sharpness of your footage...either in camera or by adjusting the sharpness, or adding some blur in your NLE.

The Gl2's default sharpness runs a little high for my taste...typically I have it turned down a couple of notches...As always, its best to test for your intended output so that your settings match (or work with) the intended output device.

Lars Siden · September 3rd, 2004, 05:09 AM

Hi,

Also remember that a flat LCD screen is basically built from small-squares. A LCD screen is bult with ONE screensize in mind, a big screeen like 20" I'd is made for showing 1280x1024 or more like 1420x1280. All other sizes you try to show on the screen will be quantized thus producing a "ugly" picture... this is one of the the main reasons going DVI-I instead of analogue when you hook up a LCD screen to the computer.

More info on lcd/flats:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/19990624/tft1-06.html

Best regards,

Lazze

David Ennis · September 6th, 2004, 04:26 PM

Is it true that Frame mode and/or Opitical Image Stabliliztion operate at the expense of image resolution?

TIA

Ken Tanaka · September 6th, 2004, 04:32 PM

OIS: No.

Frame mode: to a degree.

Do a Search "frame mode" as this is a well-trodden subject here. Hundreds of threads and posts on it.

Tony Hall · December 4th, 2004, 01:50 PM

I just TRIED to read an article at videosystems.com about progressive scanning and I'm not sure that I got the jist of it. I'm pretty sure I understand 24P, but I'm not sure that I know how the GL2's frame movie mode works.

First, here's my interpretation of the rather confusing explaination in the article that I just read. Since an NTSC camcorder can only store 240 lines per frame and CCD's have 480 lines, what happens when you use frame movie mode on a camera like the GL2 is: The camera takes every two sensor rows and combines them into one NTSC line. To reduce flicker in NTSC lines, they slightly overlap part of the RGB signal from line 1 with line 2 and so on. These 240 NTSC lines are then written to the 480 lines in field 1 and field 2.

If anyone has a clearer explaination, I'd love to hear it. Here's the article that I'm referring to: http://videosystems.com/images/archive/209vsshexp.pdf

The article says that using frame movie reduces vertical resolution to about 320 lines. I think I've also heard that 30P is much more difficult to convert to 24P than 60i.

Rob Lohman · December 6th, 2004, 03:33 AM

Both are hard to convert to 24p, however 60i will probably look
better indeed.

May I be so bold to ask why you care about the resolution (loss)?

Canon's frame mode has been discussed often and there once
was a great article explaining it in great detail on the internet,
but has since been removed unforunately.

Exact resolution "loss" is not really known, and may very well
vary depending on scene content etc. as well. I believe the
general consensus was that the loss is somewhere inbetween
25 - 50% range.

Personally I don't really care. It looks good enough for me or it
doesn't. I could care less how many actualy pixels I have left...

Mathieu Ghekiere · December 6th, 2004, 04:55 AM

Rob is right, the resolution loss is hardly noticable. It's only a little softer (you can see it in close-ups if you look very careful) but I heard deinterlacing in post also gives you resolution loss, so, if you don't want much work afterwards, just go for the Frame Mode.

Offcourse if you want to keep your options open, shoot in 60i and look then what you want to do.

Good luck.

August 11th, 2004, 02:05 PM	#286
Charlie Durand Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 92	Frame Mode Questions Hey gang, I've been doing some test shots to compare video shot using frame mode and video shot interlaced. I only see the difference on my computer. And sometimes it's a negative difference. If I shoot something with a lot of movement frame mode seems to get blurry sometimes. On the television I can't tell a difference.. unless I'm in frame mode and there's a lot of movement. Kids running, that sort of movement. So my question is, when would frame mode be a good option for shooting video? I'm not knocking it, just trying to figure out what people use it for and when. Second, should I see a difference on a regular television? Maybe my television is too old or cheap because I just don't see the difference. I know televisions are interlaced. That's probably why frame mode isn't doing anything. Thanks! Charlie

August 11th, 2004, 02:13 PM	#287
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Re: Frame Mode Questions "I only see the difference on my computer. And sometimes it's a negative difference. If I shoot something with a lot of movement frame mode seems to get blurry sometimes. On the television I can't tell a difference.. unless I'm in frame mode and there's a lot of movement. Kids running, that sort of movement." A television is where you -should- see a difference, as that medium is what video, and particularly "frame mode", is targeted towards. The view on a computer monitor is largely immaterial unless that's your planned primary venue. "So my question is, when would frame mode be a good option for shooting video? I'm not knocking it, just trying to figure out what people use it for and when." Use of frame mode (progressive scan) is largely a matter of aesthetic preference for most people. Fast motion will seem jittery because both scan fields are being recorded simultaneously. So there's less visual blurring that interlaced recording introduces. We have hundreds of threads on frame mode so a Search will keep you entertained for quite a while. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

August 12th, 2004, 01:41 AM	#288
Prech Marton Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: hungary Posts: 462	Re: Re: Frame Mode Questions And something more: you LOSE resolution in frame mode with gl2!

August 12th, 2004, 03:11 AM	#289
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I couldn't see too much of a difference on my TV either Ken. The difference is mainly in the motion signatures as you already found Charlie. At what shutter speed where you shooting? I would not advise you to go under 1/60th unless it is for that effect. Because it will strobe more indeed. Personally I loved the way it looked and how it was a tad softer due to the resolution loss. But I guess that is personal. Which mode is best for you depend on what you are trying to do with it. If you are making a fictional dramatic piece most people tend to agree that frame mode helps in this regard (gives it a slightly more filmic look). However if you do home videos for the family or broadcast stuff then I would stick with interlaced. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 29th, 2004, 08:23 PM	#290
David Crompton New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver Posts: 17	Frame Mode footage exhibited on LCD screens I have done a series of portraits shot in frame mode that will now be exhibited on LCD screens. In looking at the footage on these screens for the first time I am seeing that the edges are jagged and over all I am not happy with the look. Is there any way of dealing with this footage so these interlace issues look better or is the only choice (to get a decent picture) to view them on conventional TV monitors... Help, please!

August 29th, 2004, 08:29 PM	#291
Miguel Lombana Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Litchfield Park, AZ (W/of Phoenix) Posts: 502	David what resolution are the LCD screens in question set at? I edit with 2 LCD and preview / playback on 1 LCD TV of which all are fairly small (17" and 15") however I don't see what you're seeing. I'm wondering if this is a resolution or input issue? __________________ Miguel Lombana http://www.miguellombana.com & http://www.phoenixhamradio.com

August 29th, 2004, 09:05 PM	#292
David Crompton New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver Posts: 17	I am using an LG Flatron RU-20LA61 LCD TV. It's 20". I am going through the S-Video input so I don't know that a resolution can be set, can it? I assumed it would be automatic, but maybe not?

August 30th, 2004, 12:00 AM	#293
David Kelly Tourist Join Date: May 2004 Location: Hamilton, New Zealand Posts: 3	Think your problem could be the limited resolution of the LCD you have used. From what I gather it only has a resoltion of 640 x 480. This may be ok if your images are that otherwise the electronics can generate steps that are not there due to sizing changes. Can only suggest you try it on another better definition monitor.

August 31st, 2004, 01:34 PM	#294
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	David... LCD's generally produce a sharper looking image than standard crt televisions...so it is possible that this is what you are seeing...you may be able to turn the sharpness down on the monitor, or your next step would be to decrease the sharpness of your footage...either in camera or by adjusting the sharpness, or adding some blur in your NLE. The Gl2's default sharpness runs a little high for my taste...typically I have it turned down a couple of notches...As always, its best to test for your intended output so that your settings match (or work with) the intended output device.

September 3rd, 2004, 05:09 AM	#295
Lars Siden Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sweden, Stockholm Posts: 469	Hi, Also remember that a flat LCD screen is basically built from small-squares. A LCD screen is bult with ONE screensize in mind, a big screeen like 20" I'd is made for showing 1280x1024 or more like 1420x1280. All other sizes you try to show on the screen will be quantized thus producing a "ugly" picture... this is one of the the main reasons going DVI-I instead of analogue when you hook up a LCD screen to the computer. More info on lcd/flats: http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/19990624/tft1-06.html Best regards, Lazze

September 6th, 2004, 04:26 PM	#296
David Ennis Fred Retread Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 1,227	Do Frame Mode and OIS degrade resolution? Is it true that Frame mode and/or Opitical Image Stabliliztion operate at the expense of image resolution? TIA __________________ "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence..." - Calvin Coolidge "My brain is wired to want to know how other things are wired." - Me

September 6th, 2004, 04:32 PM	#297
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	OIS: No. Frame mode: to a degree. Do a Search "frame mode" as this is a well-trodden subject here. Hundreds of threads and posts on it. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

December 4th, 2004, 01:50 PM	#298
Tony Hall Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: springfield, OH Posts: 344	GL2 frame movie mode I just TRIED to read an article at videosystems.com about progressive scanning and I'm not sure that I got the jist of it. I'm pretty sure I understand 24P, but I'm not sure that I know how the GL2's frame movie mode works. First, here's my interpretation of the rather confusing explaination in the article that I just read. Since an NTSC camcorder can only store 240 lines per frame and CCD's have 480 lines, what happens when you use frame movie mode on a camera like the GL2 is: The camera takes every two sensor rows and combines them into one NTSC line. To reduce flicker in NTSC lines, they slightly overlap part of the RGB signal from line 1 with line 2 and so on. These 240 NTSC lines are then written to the 480 lines in field 1 and field 2. If anyone has a clearer explaination, I'd love to hear it. Here's the article that I'm referring to: http://videosystems.com/images/archive/209vsshexp.pdf The article says that using frame movie reduces vertical resolution to about 320 lines. I think I've also heard that 30P is much more difficult to convert to 24P than 60i. __________________ Tony "Good taste is the enemy of creativity" - Picasso Blog: http://www.tonyhall.name

December 6th, 2004, 03:33 AM	#299
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Both are hard to convert to 24p, however 60i will probably look better indeed. May I be so bold to ask why you care about the resolution (loss)? Canon's frame mode has been discussed often and there once was a great article explaining it in great detail on the internet, but has since been removed unforunately. Exact resolution "loss" is not really known, and may very well vary depending on scene content etc. as well. I believe the general consensus was that the loss is somewhere inbetween 25 - 50% range. Personally I don't really care. It looks good enough for me or it doesn't. I could care less how many actualy pixels I have left... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 6th, 2004, 04:55 AM	#300
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	Rob is right, the resolution loss is hardly noticable. It's only a little softer (you can see it in close-ups if you look very careful) but I heard deinterlacing in post also gives you resolution loss, so, if you don't want much work afterwards, just go for the Frame Mode. Offcourse if you want to keep your options open, shoot in 60i and look then what you want to do. Good luck.